Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.

Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:34 pm

Beyond projections.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:54 pm

Thanks for posting the Shamatha vs. Vipassana thing Xabir, that does actually make some sense to me.

It also seems to suggest though, that there would be nothing wrong with Kundalini practice if taken as simply something like Shamatha...which I guess conflicts wth kundalinis own claims about what it does, so I don't know.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:16 pm

No. Kundalini yoga has a different view, path and fruit. You can't do both. Buddhism is all or nothing.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby greentara » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:40 pm

Xabir, "Kundalini Awakening finally results in the awakening to the cosmic/infinite consciousness that is then equated with the 'true self' or 'atman-brahman', the goal of Hinduism. This is NOT the same as Buddhist enlightenment" Ramana had an experience of the rising of the Kundalini but didn't talk much about it, not considering it the ultimate. When devotees came to him and told of their own experiences he listened with interest but told people to 'press on'
Interesting that you split enlightenment. Enlightenment is a rare and extraordinary happening. Can't be defined, explained or pigeon holed!
I wonder if you can say that Milarepa's enlightenment was more enlightened then Rumi's or different to Ramana Maharshis? How could you quantify it? It's laughable!
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Azidonis » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:11 am

deepbluehum wrote:It can happen due due to past lives or this life associations but without a lineage it won't go well.


What a huge, sweeping, [over]generalization and assumption.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Jeff » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:04 am

Azidonis wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:It can happen due due to past lives or this life associations but without a lineage it won't go well.


What a huge, sweeping, [over]generalization and assumption.


Agreed.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:56 am

Azidonis wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:It can happen due due to past lives or this life associations but without a lineage it won't go well.


What a huge, sweeping, [over]generalization and assumption.


Such are the huge overgeneralizations and assumptions told by the Mahasiddhas like Dhyanyogiji and Baba Mukhtananda. Their not going to tell you what you want to hear like you are the chosen one, the self-realized do-it-yourself genius. And on a Vajrayana site it's even more pronounced. Without lineage your so-called experience is you deluding yourself. So if you want to declare your own abilities I suggest you take it to YouTube. No teacher no realization. Period. Bye bye.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby greentara » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:03 am

deepbluehum, What happened to the lineage of Baba Muktananda? There was much strife and bickering after he passed away.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:07 am

greentara wrote:deepbluehum, What happened to the lineage of Baba Muktananda? There was much strife and bickering after he passed away.


Going strong. Anyone connected to Swami Nityananda has tremendous power.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Adamantine » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:39 am

deepbluehum wrote:
greentara wrote:deepbluehum, What happened to the lineage of Baba Muktananda? There was much strife and bickering after he passed away.


Going strong. Anyone connected to Swami Nityananda has tremendous power.


Well Nityananda was the avadhoot I was speaking of. I grew up amongst students of Rudi, who considered Nityananda his root Guru.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby greentara » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:05 pm

Adamantine, "Well Nityananda was the avadhoot I was speaking of" You're obviously talking about Nityananda, Muktananda's guru. I think Deepbluehum is possibly refering to Nityananda of the brother/ sister lineage.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Adamantine » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:40 pm

greentara wrote:Adamantine, "Well Nityananda was the avadhoot I was speaking of" You're obviously talking about Nityananda, Muktananda's guru. I think Deepbluehum is possibly refering to Nityananda of the brother/ sister lineage.


Yes, that is possible. But since I know a bit about the lineage, I assumed he was referring to Bhagawan Nityananda, the source spring from which all the blessings flow. . .

I also met the student of Muktananda named after Nityananda of which you refer: I was not very impressed.

In general, I think the very traditional forms Muktananda led people into of specific closed eyed meditations with mantra recitation, etc. was not quite the style of his teacher Nityananda at all..(not to mention some of the unspeakables) Nityananda acted quite spontaneously and did not prescribe a set regimen in the same way. He acted in the incomprehensible ways of a Mahasiddha. I spent time in Ganeshpuri (not in the ashram that Muktananda built) where Nityananda lived and where his Mahasamadhi Temple is. It still resonates at a very high level with his energy. And I got to spend time talking to many villagers who were his old disciples, and heard their profound stories and feel their devotion. Most did not care for the Muktananda / Gurumayi offshoot that created a wealthy golden cage very separate from the local color. That was not Nityananda's style: he created an all you can eat cafeteria and a hospital that even very poor people could be served at. He was the poor - man's guru, and slept on the floor with a blanket his whole life. I have deep respect for him.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby greentara » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:09 pm

adamantine, Yes Nityananda was a mahasiddha and I've only heard good stories about him. He was a true guru of the 'old India' now things are changing rapidly.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Clarence » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:21 pm

greentara wrote:adamantine, Yes Nityananda was a mahasiddha and I've only heard good stories about him. He was a true guru of the 'old India' now things are changing rapidly.


Yeah, I wonder if there are even some like Nityananda left these days. Anyone knows?
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:52 pm

greentara wrote:Adamantine, "Well Nityananda was the avadhoot I was speaking of" You're obviously talking about Nityananda, Muktananda's guru. I think Deepbluehum is possibly refering to Nityananda of the brother/ sister lineage.


Why are you putting words in my mouth? I'm talking about Swami Muktananda's guru. I've also been around students of Rudi. I'm from the Bay Area. There's not a lineage out here I haven't been around. Anyway. I followed Anandi Ma and Dhyanyogiji.

Back to the topic at hand. Why I don't still follow this is because of Buddhism. These two are not cognates. The Mahayana is beyond any method, stages of time, experiences, etc. Here the practice of mantra is only a beginner practice. Also, the lineage of Buddhist masters have preserved their wisdom. They have controlled the outcomes so that what happens to Mahayoga lineages, spinout, is prevented. Vajrayana has strength in numbers. The Hindu tradition is about people proclaiming themselves as a destiny of God. Also the method is based on concentration. And all this stuff about kundalini and energy is completely beyond the point. Those who want to equate kundalini yoga and and tummo don't know a thing about Buddhists view, path and fruit, and I wold kindly ask you not to post that sort of talk on a Vajrayana website.

Of course I can't stop you. But I won't participate in it. You can conjecture all you want about my relative experience compared to yours. If that makes you feel better. I'm a Puri. My family lineage is older than India and I was taught by my 101 year old yogi grandfather beginning when I was a child. Growing up in California gave me more access to great spiritual figures than if I had grown up in India. And I've practiced meditation from all sorts of traditions since before I could read. So excuse me if I speak with confidence. Except for my teacher Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche and the rest of the Drikung Kagyu, ChNN and the other Dzogchen teachers I've learned from, I have yet to meet someone who impresses me. Certainly no one on this board except for Malcolm who I met.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby greentara » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:08 am

deepbluehum, "Why are you putting words in my mouth?" I certainly didn't, if you look carefully I used the word 'possibly'
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Jnana » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:36 am

deepbluehum wrote:Those who want to equate kundalini yoga and and tummo don't know a thing about Buddhists view, path and fruit....

Yes, they are different. Buddhist tummo doesn't have any of the metaphysical correlations of kuṇḍalinī.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:26 am

Deepbluehum, I am very happy to hear about your extensive background, and the high quality teachers you have been able to connect to. I don't think anyone here was conflating kundalini with tummo, aside from the OP who was merely asking if there was a relation.

But I don't believe it is outside the scope of Vajrayana yogas, and for some example / context of Vajrayana master's references to kundalini-- this is Lama Yeshe:

Among the realizations...many people are interested in tantra realizations, very high tantra realizations like Six Yogas of Naropa, chakra, wind meditations, generating heat in the body from tummo meditation, so forth, kundalini, the bliss, the kundalini bringing up and down, which even Hindus can do that. So nothing particular. Without compassion these things can become cause, not only cause of samsara, but even the cause of the lower realms if it’s done with attachment clinging to this life. So without the motivation of compassion even one do get some experiences, some powerful experience of those in the section of the graduated completion path but without compassion it becomes nothing special.

So it’s like, [pause] Tibetans always use the example this cheese, the dry cheese with lots of butter, so real taste is from the butter. What makes ice cream delicious is by what, cream or by sweet? [Student: Both.] Anyway, whatever makes the ice cream delicious. So, without that. Or like cake, something, butter and those sweet, whatever it is, that makes flavor, interesting the flavor, so like that. So the compassion makes everything worthwhile and rich, all those experiences rich, meaningful, cause of enlightenment. It protects you, yeah, protects you falling into the lower nirvana, falling, become cause of reincarnating in samsara again and even particular the lower realms.

Also, as I mentioned last time, I gave a few examples how this is the answer for everything, all the problems that one has in the life, I said bodhicitta, good heart, is the solution for everything.


Another excerpt from Lama Yeshe:

Lama.Yeshe:Control of kundalini energy (=libido, sexual energy, naga energy) is important even in ordinary orgasm. You cannot have a perfect orgasm if you cannot control your energy. It is the same in tantra. You cannot experience perfect bliss if you cannot control your energy. The fact is that if we lose our energy, we have to energy to utilize. In order to use energy, we need energy. If we don't have it, we cannot use it. This is logical, and you can see it clearly from your own experience. When you concentrate well and control your energy, you can experience more bliss, which you then unify with the wisdom of nonduality.
If kundalini starts to flow uncontrollably during your meditation and you begin to experience orgasm, try as much as possible to hold it and have it expand inside the secret chakra. Try to hold the energy there as long as possible. The longer you can hold it, the more pleasure you will experience and the more possibility you will have of utilizing that pleasure by unifying it with the universal reality of nonduality. In this way, you learn to control your body as well as your mind.


So here we see that Lama Yeshe was very familiar with kundalini energy, he differentiated working with it from tummo practice, acknowledged that Hindu yogis utilize it too, but clearly in the last quote we see that he deems it something innate to the body which is important to learn to work with for a yogin regardless. The main thing, is motivation. This is from Lama Yeshe. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with him. Just providing references.

Similarly, here is an excerpt of a question and answer session with Chogyam Trungpa:

Student: Rinpoche, could you tell us how guna is connected with spaciousness and how all that is connected with the chakras?

Vidyadhara: Guna, well guna is another type of intelligence, seems to be. It is similar to the intelligence or the feeling of earth, at the beginning, because guna is connected with earth as well as space. The color is yellow, a gold color. In other words, in regard to the sharpness of the chitta and the intelligence--in order not to get carried away with the excitement of the intelligence, guna brings it down, regulates the whole thing together, and then transfers its process to action, or karma. So guna, in this case, acts as a scale. It has all the qualities of the other elements. It has the intelligence as well as the particular qualities of sanity.
According th the yoga tradition as well, in the visualization of the chandali and in kundalini practice, when the chandali flame is raised up in the navel chakra, that's the most dangerous time because it's the junction of all the nadis. It's the most dangerous point, how to relate to it. So one must develop guna in this case to even out and work with everything in a very even principle, because there's the likelihood of losing ground.
Guna is the space quality. In other words, guna is the space of earth itself. It is not space space, which is the intelligence in this case, but the space of earth. Guna is the regulator which evens out and balances the whole situation. It seems to be quite dangerous, this process of working with energy, like chandali practice. You're playing with energy. If you don't work properly with the guna principle, then there's the possibility of distorting all the nadi systems into imperfection. So guna is, therefore, space---space which fills every gap, space which divides the relationship of this to that, like the space in our everyday life. There are a lot of things that we could go into details about, but we don't seem to have enough time.


I won't go deeply into this but let's just say that I have received personal advice regarding my background in Kundalini from different luminaries of the Dzogchen tradition and it was never treated as something outside of the tradition, as separate.. in the same way that the masters above refer to it casually within the context of their yoga teachings. However, it is not understood in any way to be the end-all-be-all as it is referred to in Hindu yoga traditions of kundalini yoga. It is merely another aspect of the inherent energies of the body, and it is part of the map of relationality. It is important to see it in the context of proper view and motivation, especially if Dzogchen is the larger field of one's practice, which is very different than the context of yogic traditions where kundalini is contextualized in a more supreme manner.
Last edited by Adamantine on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:28 am

Thank you for posting those. I felt kind of bad for resurrecting thread given the direction it's gone in, but those were very helpful.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:45 am

They are using the word kundalini, but it is a different concept altogether. In Vajrayana, there is really no kundalini. It's not about motivation really. In Hinduism the kundalini is a living force that acts of its own. In Vajrayana, practitioner uses visualization to generate the fire element. Nothing acts of its own. Here the fire element and bijas are being utilized as tools, particularly to dissolve red and white bindus into the heart center in a death rehearsal of sorts, the endgame is to gain an intuitive understanding of how birth occurs so that it can be stopped. In Dzogchen, the situation changes again, because method is a kind of sem zin. As you know Togal is the big deal of Dzogchen, and methods are all auxiliary ways to get into trekcho, which you need to have a successful togal. In Kundalini yoga the job is finished when the kundalini works its way up to the sahasrara chakra, because at that time, one can enter sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. Again this happens of its own. Now I've revealed all I plan to. Much more can be said. How this makes the two realizations different is that Buddhist realization is completely beyond Samadhi.
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