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 Post subject: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:55 am 
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Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 179-182). Kindle Edition.

But such a being may manifest a body through which others can have the possibility of being helped. The Body of Light, or the Light Body of a being who has realized the Great Transfer, are both phenomena which can be actively maintained so that those having the visionary clarity necessary for perceiving them can communicate with the fully realized individuals whose bodies find themselves in a dimension of pure light.

What happens to the rainbow body if it is not actively maintained? Is it something that can be lost?


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:50 am 
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Nighthawk wrote:
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 179-182). Kindle Edition.

But such a being may manifest a body through which others can have the possibility of being helped. The Body of Light, or the Light Body of a being who has realized the Great Transfer, are both phenomena which can be actively maintained so that those having the visionary clarity necessary for perceiving them can communicate with the fully realized individuals whose bodies find themselves in a dimension of pure light.

What happens to the rainbow body if it is not actively maintained? Is it something that can be lost?

From what I understand, you can't lose the Body of Light. It is associated with the 16th bhumi and thus, Buddhahood without remainder. His use of the word "actively maintained" might just be misleading here.

But I am no expert.


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:41 am 
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My interpretation of this somewhat difficult point is that although the realized yogin who attains rainbow body has more or less merged with space itself, through compassionate intention they can manifest in subtle form (thus actively maintaining) which can be perceived and directly related to by those with the capacity of subtle awareness developed through advanced dharma practice.
I believe this would be equivalent to a samboghakaya form. It must be similarly possible for a being who has accomplished the result of rainbow body to emanate a nirmanakaya form if they are compelled to, since we do have nirmanakayas of beings who attained rainbowbody amongst us. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6532&p=147720#p147720

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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:28 am 
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Adamantine wrote:
My interpretation of this somewhat difficult point is that although the realized yogin who attains rainbow body has more or less merged with space itself, through compassionate intention they can manifest in subtle form (thus actively maintaining) which can be perceived and directly related to by those with the capacity of subtle awareness developed through advanced dharma practice.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6532&p=147720#p147720

Are you talking of two things here? The rainbow body is the sambhogakaya, but what you are saying the rainbow body isn't the sambhogakaya but the subtle form that it manifests is?


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:34 pm 
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What he means is that the rainbow body is always active.


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:35 pm 
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Nighthawk wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
My interpretation of this somewhat difficult point is that although the realized yogin who attains rainbow body has more or less merged with space itself, through compassionate intention they can manifest in subtle form (thus actively maintaining) which can be perceived and directly related to by those with the capacity of subtle awareness developed through advanced dharma practice.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6532&p=147720#p147720

Are you talking of two things here? The rainbow body is the sambhogakaya, but what you are saying the rainbow body isn't the sambhogakaya but the subtle form that it manifests is?


Rainbow body is the supreme Nirmanakaya.


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Nighthawk wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
My interpretation of this somewhat difficult point is that although the realized yogin who attains rainbow body has more or less merged with space itself, through compassionate intention they can manifest in subtle form (thus actively maintaining) which can be perceived and directly related to by those with the capacity of subtle awareness developed through advanced dharma practice.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6532&p=147720#p147720

Are you talking of two things here? The rainbow body is the sambhogakaya, but what you are saying the rainbow body isn't the sambhogakaya but the subtle form that it manifests is?


From "The Supreme Source" by ChNN

"the supreme realization of which lies in the manifestation of the "rainbow body," the total re-absorption of the material elements into the pure energy and luminous essence of the primordial state".

It is the "integration" of the primordial state, while maintaing a "rainbow body" form with which others may "communicate".

Best, Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Jeff wrote:

From "The Supreme Source" by ChNN

"the supreme realization of which lies in the manifestation of the "rainbow body," the total re-absorption of the material elements into the pure energy and luminous essence of the primordial state".

It is the "integration" of the primordial state, while maintaing a "rainbow body" form with which others may "communicate".

Best, Jeff


What does he mean by total "re-absorption?" It kind of sounds like the rainbow body is something that was once already had.


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:10 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:

Rainbow body is the supreme Nirmanakaya.

That's the first time I heard it being called a nirmanakaya. Here is the definiton of supreme nirmanakaya from rigpawiki.

A supreme nirmanakaya (Skt. uttamanirmāṇakāya; Wyl. mchog gi sprul sku) is a buddha who takes birth into the world, displays the twelve deeds of a buddha, and passes into parinirvana at the end of his life. Buddha Kashyapa, Buddha Shakyamuni and the Six Munis are examples of supreme nirmanakaya buddhas. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... irmanakaya


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Nighthawk wrote:
Jeff wrote:

From "The Supreme Source" by ChNN

"the supreme realization of which lies in the manifestation of the "rainbow body," the total re-absorption of the material elements into the pure energy and luminous essence of the primordial state".

It is the "integration" of the primordial state, while maintaing a "rainbow body" form with which others may "communicate".

Best, Jeff


What does he mean by total "re-absorption?" It kind of sounds like the rainbow body is something that was once already had.


By "re-absorbtion", he is talking about the "conversion" of the physical body back into pure energy of the primordial state. The rainbow body is a primordial energy light body.

Best, Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:22 am 
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Nighthawk wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

Rainbow body is the supreme Nirmanakaya.

That's the first time I heard it being called a nirmanakaya. Here is the definiton of supreme nirmanakaya from rigpawiki.

A supreme nirmanakaya (Skt. uttamanirmāṇakāya; Wyl. mchog gi sprul sku) is a buddha who takes birth into the world, displays the twelve deeds of a buddha, and passes into parinirvana at the end of his life. Buddha Kashyapa, Buddha Shakyamuni and the Six Munis are examples of supreme nirmanakaya buddhas. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... irmanakaya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yea, the Body of Light is definitely Sambhogakaya.


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:51 am 
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tomamundsen wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

Rainbow body is the supreme Nirmanakaya.

That's the first time I heard it being called a nirmanakaya. Here is the definiton of supreme nirmanakaya from rigpawiki.

A supreme nirmanakaya (Skt. uttamanirmāṇakāya; Wyl. mchog gi sprul sku) is a buddha who takes birth into the world, displays the twelve deeds of a buddha, and passes into parinirvana at the end of his life. Buddha Kashyapa, Buddha Shakyamuni and the Six Munis are examples of supreme nirmanakaya buddhas. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... irmanakaya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yea, the Body of Light is definitely Sambhogakaya.

I'm not sure it's a simple case of separating these out as if they were unrelated to one another. I understand that there are effects at both nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya due to the inseperability of the three apparent dimensions.

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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:04 am 
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Well, the whole point of a nirmanakaya emanation is specifically to benefit innumerable beings, manifesting in a form they can perceive, right? But if we are to follow ChNN's statement posted by the OP then only certain beings with a high level of clarity can perceive the maintained form related to rainbow body that he is referring to. Which seems quite a lot like the qualities of Buddhas manifesting in sambogakaya. Of course, these categories are merely conditional referents we give meaning to, so we could change the meanings any time and perhaps they are meant to change according to a deeper understanding that I may not have. But I was merely interpreting based on the level of understanding I now have, which is not much.

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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:18 pm 
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Adamantine wrote:
Well, the whole point of a nirmanakaya emanation is specifically to benefit innumerable beings, manifesting in a form they can perceive, right? But if we are to follow ChNN's statement posted by the OP then only certain beings with a high level of clarity can perceive the maintained form related to rainbow body that he is referring to. Which seems quite a lot like the qualities of Buddhas manifesting in sambogakaya. Of course, these categories are merely conditional referents we give meaning to, so we could change the meanings any time and perhaps they are meant to change according to a deeper understanding that I may not have. But I was merely interpreting based on the level of understanding I now have, which is not much.


I don't know anything about this topic, but I have never seen Vimalamitra--do I have to go to Wu Tai Shan to see him?

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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Yudron wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Well, the whole point of a nirmanakaya emanation is specifically to benefit innumerable beings, manifesting in a form they can perceive, right? But if we are to follow ChNN's statement posted by the OP then only certain beings with a high level of clarity can perceive the maintained form related to rainbow body that he is referring to. Which seems quite a lot like the qualities of Buddhas manifesting in sambogakaya. Of course, these categories are merely conditional referents we give meaning to, so we could change the meanings any time and perhaps they are meant to change according to a deeper understanding that I may not have. But I was merely interpreting based on the level of understanding I now have, which is not much.


I don't know anything about this topic, but I have never seen Vimalamitra--do I have to go to Wu Tai Shan to see him?


Maybe Yudron :D shall we go and find out?

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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Adamantine wrote:
Yudron wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Well, the whole point of a nirmanakaya emanation is specifically to benefit innumerable beings, manifesting in a form they can perceive, right? But if we are to follow ChNN's statement posted by the OP then only certain beings with a high level of clarity can perceive the maintained form related to rainbow body that he is referring to. Which seems quite a lot like the qualities of Buddhas manifesting in sambogakaya. Of course, these categories are merely conditional referents we give meaning to, so we could change the meanings any time and perhaps they are meant to change according to a deeper understanding that I may not have. But I was merely interpreting based on the level of understanding I now have, which is not much.


I don't know anything about this topic, but I have never seen Vimalamitra--do I have to go to Wu Tai Shan to see him?


Maybe Yudron :D shall we go and find out?



Yes!

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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:17 pm 
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I'd go too, but I'm not sure I'd recognize him.

According to Tulku Tondup, last time Kyabje DoDrupchen Rinpoche
met with him there, he was dusty old shoemaker, and nobody
in the entourage knew why DoDrupchen Rinpoche was bothering.
Only after they asked, did he reveal who it was and that he was
receiving teachings.

Anyway, Manjushri lives there too... who want to try and meet them?


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:56 pm 
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"Garab Dorje was considered to be not only a great adept, or Mahasiddha, but also the Nirmanakaya, or emanation of Vajrasattva. Thus he was enlightened even before his birth in our world-system, and it followed that he taught the Dzogchen precepts to humans and nonhumans, principally the Dakinis, since earliest childhood, beginning with the exposition of the above Tantra when he was a three-day-old infant".

Extract from "The Golden Letters" by Snow Lion Publications, p. 207, "The Historical Existence of Garab Dorje".

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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Nighthawk wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

Rainbow body is the supreme Nirmanakaya.

That's the first time I heard it being called a nirmanakaya. Here is the definiton of supreme nirmanakaya from rigpawiki.

A supreme nirmanakaya (Skt. uttamanirmāṇakāya; Wyl. mchog gi sprul sku) is a buddha who takes birth into the world, displays the twelve deeds of a buddha, and passes into parinirvana at the end of his life. Buddha Kashyapa, Buddha Shakyamuni and the Six Munis are examples of supreme nirmanakaya buddhas. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... irmanakaya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Dzogchen talks different. By the way, as sambhogakaya is only a symbolic representation of dharma teachings and does not perform activities. This is why a rainbow body is a nirmanakaya and not a sambhogakaya.


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 Post subject: Re: Rainbow body
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:38 am 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

Rainbow body is the supreme Nirmanakaya.

That's the first time I heard it being called a nirmanakaya. Here is the definiton of supreme nirmanakaya from rigpawiki.

A supreme nirmanakaya (Skt. uttamanirmāṇakāya; Wyl. mchog gi sprul sku) is a buddha who takes birth into the world, displays the twelve deeds of a buddha, and passes into parinirvana at the end of his life. Buddha Kashyapa, Buddha Shakyamuni and the Six Munis are examples of supreme nirmanakaya buddhas. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... irmanakaya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Dzogchen talks different. By the way, as sambhogakaya is only a symbolic representation of dharma teachings and does not perform activities. This is why a rainbow body is a nirmanakaya and not a sambhogakaya.

Interesting. Do you have a textual citation for this?

Thanks :namaste:


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