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Emptiness of time and others - Dhamma Wheel

Emptiness of time and others

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DarwidHalim
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Emptiness of time and others

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:47 pm

There are some ideas, which I want to share with you about emptiness. Long time ago, I am asking myself about the emptiness of time. In our normal life, we all know that time exist. To be exact, actually the concept of time exists. Whether the time itself exist or not, according to Buddhism, it doesn't exist. I keep asking myself, why it doesn't exist. Finally, I realize that it cannot exist. The concept of time can exist, but it doesn't mean time exist.

I realize that the concept of time can exist because we human beings have a believe of existance, real, or permanent. When we believe existance, the concept of time becomes real. Beauty becomes real. Ugly becomes real. Molecule becomes real. Electrone becomes real. Proton becomes real. Anything can become real.

However, nothing is permanent. Everything keeps changing. Nothing can ever standstill forever. There is nothing! My body keeps changing. My current body and my body 1 second ago are completely different. My body keeps changing. My body which is permanent NEVER exist, simply because it cannot exist due to impermanent.

If something exists, it must have production, duration, and extinction. It must have these 3 things.

Now, let's look at duration. I have a iPhone. I can see my iPhone. It is real. Is it true?
If we use our normal eyes, we can see that it is real. But, suppose we have a super sensitive eyes, we can see that actually it keeps changing. I cannot see it in naked eyes. But, I am absolutely sure it is changing. The battery component is changing. The battery is not as powerful as before. THe cover is not as smooth as before. This is the prove that m iPhone is changing. If my handphone is permanent, then it cannot change. Something which is permanent cannot change. It is illogical to say something permanent can change! If it can change, it is impermanent!

Now, I can prove that my iPhone is impermanent. It changes every second. My iPhone now and my iphone 0.0000001 second ago are already different. It NEVER be the same. It means its duration is ZERO. There is no duration that this handphone is the same at very microscopic level. NEVER be the same.

If something has no duration, it means it can only have production (birth) and extinction (death). It means when the things exist (birth), and the same time as well it extinct (death). This definition is conflicting each other. Birth and death cannot exist together because according to definition, they are conflicting each other.

Therefore, it is concluded that production (birth), duration (living), extinction (death) cannot exist if we accept the reality of impermanent.

The question is how come people think there is production (birth), duration (living), extinction (death)? THis is because people have a SENSE of permanent. This wrong idea is simply the shadow of permanent. That is the consequence of accepting the idea of permanent.

If nothing exists, then what is iPhone 4? I remember there is 1 zen master say that when you realize that there is no boundary between you and me, you will enlighten straight away. This is very true. We have a sense that me is me, you is you. Your boundary and my boundary is clear, which is this human skin, human body. But do we realize that although this is skin seems like a boundary, actually it is affected by many things. When everything is affecting each other, where is the ACTUAL boundary? This concept of boundary is also totally WRONG.

People can argue that if I eat, you won't feel full. So, it is clear that what I do, it doesn't affect you. So, it must have a boundary. This is not true. Whatever, you are eating is processed by your body. Because of your body function, I cannot feel I am full. But this body function is not a boundary. It seems like a boundary, but it is not. This body collection is collected due to karmic energy, which makes it looks like 1. But, actually it is not 1. the body functions simply stop the effect of your fullness to affect my body. It is simply a stopping function. It is not a boundary. Stopping function means everything is interconnected. Everything is govern by nature function which is also called karmic laws. Due to some reason, it is possible that when you eat, I can feel full. As long as I can understand that function, it will work. This is not impossible because everything in nature is interconnected. There is no boundary.

There is a monk in Tibet who practice boddhicitta. I forget the name already. One time people throw a rock to the dog while this buddhist master is giving a teaching. Suddenly, he say ouchhhh. The dog feels nothing. This connection is possible because in nature everything is interconnected. Some of us cannot unlock it because we think everything is fix, has boundary. But, when we realize there is no boundary, nothing is fixed, everything becomes possible. Only few people can realize this and when they show this connection, we say "WOW, they can do magic". Actually, that is nothing. It is just the existance of connection in nature.

Come back to the iPhone 4. What is this iPhone 4, if it is not real. It is simply a collection of "energy", which is temporary there. Well, reality is unexpressible, but I just call it "energy" for the sake of conservation. It is just a collection that temporarily collect together due to some karmic laws. It is like a cloud. It looks so real, but we know it is just a collection of what we called "water". iPhone 4 is simply a collection of impermanent thing, which appear as if it is real, so solid. But in reality, it is not there. It doesn't have duration. Does it have? It always changing, how can it have a duration? Therefore, it cannot exist.

Once again, it is normal if we feel it exists, because our mind has been habituated to the concept of permanence. Time will come when you will realize this. It looks real, in reality it is not real. The union of appearance and emptiness.

In the heart sutra, it is said "Form is empty. Emptiness is form". This is what is referring to.

Regarding time. It is also no real. How to prove it? Let's look at present time. Present time means now. It always pin point to now. It can NEVER have a duration. If it cannot have a duration, how can we say it is real? We are simply crazy people. Contradicting ourself, isn't it? But, it is normal, because we have a concept of permanence, which is although wrong, we still believe it is true.

It is the same thing with body, mind, and anything you can mention. You won't be able to find any duration in anything which is impermanent. NEVER EVER.

We have a tendency that if we cannot find something or define something, we have a feeling of getting lost. Nothing anchor us. We feel not secure. It is really illusion. We also have a feeling that when we cannot define something, we cannot understand it. This is absolutely wrong.

Let's see when you eat orange. When you eat the orange, do you define it is orange? I think no. At least for me, I don't label it as orange. I simply eat without thinking. As long as I mindful, I know EXACTLY what is orange taste. Can I define the orange taste? EVEN BUDDHA CANNOT DEFINE IT!

Although I cannot define it, I know exactly what it is. This unexpressible can be fully understood if you don't destroy it with your concept. CONCEPT IS ALWAYS WRONG.

Everything can only exist due to label. Because of label it appears. You change the definition of that label, you get different object. But that object is simply not permanent, not real. Reality cannot be define partially. Reality can only be describe fully as a whole, together with its smell, taste, visual, etc. But how to define reality in such a way? Even Buddha cannot define it.

But, Buddha can realize it. You can also realize it.

Everything is simply 1. Yet that 1 simply doesn't exist.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby m0rl0ck » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:38 pm

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

Kenshou
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby Kenshou » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:09 pm

I think you might be more interested in something like advaita vedanta than theravada, Darwid.

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:09 am

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:31 am

@m0rl0ck: That is just my view actually. I learn it from all buddhist tradition: Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, and Zen. I never fix myself to only Theravada. Each tradition has different way to show you reality. Although the tradition or the way is different, the reality that they pins point is the same.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

santa100
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby santa100 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:59 am

Thanks very much for sharing DarwidHalim. All streams flow into one sea. From Anicca of Early Buddhism, to Prajnaparamita of the Mahayana. Although my root is the Nikayas, I also had a chance to read the Heart Sutra and the Diamond Sutra, and learned about Emptiness, one of the central tenets of Mahayana Buddhism..

pegembara
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby pegembara » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:16 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

nameless
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby nameless » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:50 am


SamKR
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby SamKR » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:53 pm


NDat
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby NDat » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:56 pm

If we always stay at present, here and now then there is no past and future. Therefore, there is no time.

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Pondera
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby Pondera » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:37 pm

I think I can define the taste of an orange. It's sweet and has this citrus taste to it. Not like strawberrys, closer to mangos...but if you actually look at the texture of the orange; the edible parts are inside that translucent sort of sheath. And I think, unlike bananas or soft fruits like that, the orange has, like I said, the citrus taste to it... as if those little slices just pop in your mouth.

And in that sense it tastes very much like those other fruits which are a bit "see-through", like grapefruits obviously, but also like strawberries (in a sense). But that mostly accounts for the aromatic properties of the orange, this translucent sheathing property (also found in grapes).

Grapes and Oranges are perfect examples for comparison. They feel exactly the same in your mouth when you eat them because they both have the same virtual texture. But the taste of the orange is very much different, obviously, than the grape. But both the grape and the orange have the juiciness not found in bananas. So grapes and oranges are similar for this reason. But very different for another reason. And that would be the citrus part. So, I think I can define the taste of an orange. The taste of a grape would be very hard to define though.

I think time exists because we must admit to there being a past. If there was not a past, then where could we ever draw memories from? And I mean that very metaphysically. If you accept that certain people can see into past lives then you have only two options that account for memory. Both arise from the fact that the brain you have now isn't the same brain you had in a past life. Hence, memories cannot simply be stored in the brain. But then you might accept the more reasonable view held by society that past life recollection is a heap of superstition, of course memories are stored in the brain, and yada yada yada, "let's push that whole area into the realm of "nevermind" and go on rationally with our lives"; having never experienced the reality of past life experiences and so forth.

But assuming them (past lives) to be real, memory must have some sort of relationship to the past since we are able to recall things from actual past lives, and those memories were not formed in the eyes of our present vesicles, hence they are either stored in the past, as if the past were a real, although dormant feature of existence; or -the other alternative is that our karmic formation carries every experience it ever had with it throughout lifetimes. The former case is a better argument because in the latter we need to account for the storage space of memory existing in the karmic formation, which is hardly as good an argument as is the accounting for such massive, massive, massive amounts of life experience actually existing in something we usually call the past, which is in fact a mere essence of our previous lives trailing off into space like the dust off of an incoming meteorite. The Buddha recalled eons and eons of past lives as a direct result of full enlightenment. His relation to existence, without question, allowed him to view millions, upon millions of past lives. So, was his past life recollection a view into the far reaching past, or a sort of karmic unraveling of all his experiences stored up in his karmic being? He was able to simply stop his karmic formation. That might seem to imply that the long lasting karmic formation might carry memory with it. But I think the reality is that the karmic formation simply bears a relationship with the past which we might call memory, or recollection.

The future must also be accepted as a possibility. We are free beings who have the power to change our destinies. Defined in this way, the future is simply the allowable outcome of our possibilities. To deny a future is to accept determinism. But when you claim there is no time you allow for all possibilities and the actuality of existence is that there are a limited number of possible outcomes to one's life. If we even admit that every spelling misteake I evber make can be corrected in time by me simply goign back to the spelling misteake and correcting it, then we are admitting to an obviously inconsequential sort of world wherein possibilities exist. However, by admitting even this we are allowing for the existence of certain fortuitous junctions in life that are not perhaps so inconsequential as what is enacted and what results when I decide or decide not to go back and correct my spelling mistakes. Such junctions if they exist may be the difference between a happy destiny and an unhappy destiny. Virtue, Wisdom, and Knowledge enable a person to avoid the flow of fate that drags one down the unfortunate river of sadness. The future is not set in stone.

My only point is that the future is the time with which we have to make the most of our lives. We are singular in the sense that we can squander our time or make the most of it. Time is change in a sense. But moment to moment change is too linear an argument for the non-existence of time. Rocks even seem to remain the same for extended periods of time. The fluctuation of atoms and electrons on the inner most rockdems of these stones only amounts to vibration. And vibration does not discount existence. Vibrations imply continuation.

-Pondera

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Pondera
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby Pondera » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:28 pm

'"The currents in the world that flow, Ajita," said the Blessed One,
'"Are stemmed by means of mindfulness ;
'"Restraint of currents I proclaim,
'"By understanding they are dammed"' (Sn.1035);

From "The Path of Purification Ch. 1.) 18.

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:11 am

Last edited by DarwidHalim on Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:36 am

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Ben
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby Ben » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:00 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:21 pm

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:21 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Pondera
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby Pondera » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:08 pm


lexybam
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby lexybam » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:34 pm

Buddhism theory might proves that there is no time, well that is for the believers of the theory, but the truth is that there is time in the life of man and we are all being guilsded and armed by that. For example, the writer used his iphone, but in a more sensible way, there is time to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner. If there is no time we probably would have not specified time for that.
||

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Postby DarwidHalim » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:30 am

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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