Protector asscociated with Gaden / FPMT

[waimengwan]

Dear Friends
Does anyone recognize the protector who took trance in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5JtUra3UA8

Thanks. Great that the oracle tradition is being supported by FPMT.

[Yudron]

Yeah, we all have a lot to thank the Bön for.

[waimengwan]

Protectors are not uniquely Bon as far as I know. Setrap escorted Loden Sherab from India. There were protectors at the Indian monasteries especially Nalanda.

Some resources on Setrap
http://drophenling.com/Dagyab-Kyabgoen-Rinpoche.html
http://www.lordsetrap.com/biography.html

[Yudron]

Oracles--very similar to the Tibetan ones--existed in most traditional cultures of the world, and gods and demons exist wherever there are humans to believe in them.

I like the mountain goddesses, personally... the Tseringmas, Tenmas, and Dorje Yudron.

These energies are fun to play with, and easy to be distracted by.

[JKhedrup]

Thanks. Great that the oracle tradition is being supported by FPMTI

How do you draw this conclusion? Because Lama Zopa Rinpoche was one of 5 or 6 different lamas to whom a group long life puja was offered and an oracle came in for about 3-4 minutes of that puja to offer khatags?

The sponsor of the puja in fact was the monastery rather than FPMT.

Personally I don't know that this video shows that FPMT is "supporting the oracle tradition" as the link shows a long life puja not just for Lama Zopa Rinpoche. From the video it is clear it a long life puja for several different teachers- that is why there are several lamas sitting on the thrones. Lama Zopa along with Khen Rinpoche Lobsang Delek (current abbot at Sera Jey), Khensur Tekchok Rinpoche (former abbot and teacher of the Master's Program in Italy), and Khensur Lobsang Palden, Kangyurwa Khensur Thupten Rinpoche from Tehor Khangtsen. So it is a general long life puja for the current and previous abbots of Sera Jey and Lama Zopa Rinpoche as the main sponsor of the food of the monastery.

From what I have observed from Lama Zopa Rinpoche he is definitely open to the oracle tradition and deeply respectful of Khandro-la, who sometimes serves as an oracle for one of the Tenma goddesses. LZR as a very traditional lama I think would be open to the phenomena of oracles but I think you are using this video to draw inaccurate conclusions.

I will ask Geshe la about the deity associated with this oracle later this morning.

[JKhedrup]

Good timing! I caught Geshe la just as he was boiling some water for tea.

He told me that this deity, Gyalchen Karma Trinley is a worldly protector associated with the retinue of Glorious Hayagriva.

I asked that since Hayagriva is enlightened if Gyalchen Karma Trinley might be as well.

His answer? "Of course not, Buddhas don't manifest through oracles. Why do you keep asking me about this?"

When I pressed further he mentioned his uncle and teacher (current abbot of Sera Jey)was at the ceremony as you can see in the video and if a Buddha appeared he surely would have mentioned it during their phone conversations.

Geshe la stated that Gyalpo and other worldly deities are not enlightened Buddhas, as Buddhas do not manifest through oracles. He said if people here check the teachings of HH Dalai Lama, the Karmapas and others they will maybe be convinced.

The main protector of Nalanda was Mahakala, a fully enlightened being specifically mentioned in the tantras.

BTW this ceremony did not happen at Ganden as mentioned in the title, but at Sera Jey.

[Caz]

Good timing! I caught Geshe la just as he was boiling some water for tea.

He told me that this deity, Gyalchen Karma Trinley is a worldly protector associated with the retinue of Glorious Hayagriva.

I asked that since Hayagriva is enlightened if Gyalchen Karma Trinley might be as well.

His answer? "Of course not, Buddhas don't manifest through oracles. Why do you keep asking me about this?"

When I pressed further he mentioned his uncle and teacher (current abbot of Sera Jey)was at the ceremony as you can see in the video and if a Buddha appeared he surely would have mentioned it during their phone conversations.

Geshe la stated that Gyalpo and other worldly deities are not enlightened Buddhas, as Buddhas do not manifest through oracles. He said if people here check the teachings of HH Dalai Lama, the Karmapas and others they will maybe be convinced.

The main protector of Nalanda was Mahakala, a fully enlightened being specifically mentioned in the tantras.

BTW this ceremony did not happen at Ganden as mentioned in the title, but at Sera Jey.

Buddha's can manifest in a myriad of forms even as a worldly beings for example setrap is Amitabha's emanation appearing in a worldly form yet he can manifest through an oracle and give suitable advise as he has done so many times in the past.

So it is not unreasonable to say this any more then it is to say Buddha's appear in the form of a spiritual guide out of their great compassion.

[JKhedrup]

This topic has been debated over and over on the forum so I am not sure why people keep pushing new threads on it. It is to the benefit of all of us not to allow DW to be dominated by this controversy. The civil atmosphere here is partly why DW has far more people paticipating than the other forums where endless discussions of this topic are allowed. If people take a look at the other forums they will see what I say is true. People are tired of hearing about it and there are so many other topics related to Buddhism to discuss.

It is to all of our benefit not to continually try to open discussions on this no matter what side of the fence you find yourself on.

I will not ban people based on their opinion regarding this matter but at the same time I will uphold the terms of service and not allow HHDL to be misrepresented or slandered, including links to websites that do this.

Everyone here is welcome to discuss the dharma. People are not, however, welcome to use DW to grind their axe regarding this issue. You also will not find pages and pages of threads against the practice here. So consider this a middle-way approach.

I see this plain as day and am not sure why people cannot enjoy the forum without constantly trying to bring up this topic.

To me it is very clear that if we start seeking advice of the Buddhas through oracle mediums Buddhism can become a type of Shamanism. People will want to "talk directly to Buddha" through the oracle rather than rely on the teachings and qualified teachers who have studied.

Caz, even your teacher established a policy at his institutions not allowing oracles- if he honestly believed they were speaking the flawless advice of the Buddhas why would he have made that decision?

Supramundane deity in the aspect of a mundane deity has led to the tremendous confusion regarding these practices that has occured in the last 200 years or so.

The assertion that Sertrap is an enlightened being is not even held by all of the lamas at Gaden Shartse.

Geshe-la and I live at a centre where the senior teacher is a Ganden Jangtse geshe. He arrived in the early days so stayed with the Shartse monks and has expressed similar opinions. I can ask him specifically about this issue when he comes back to the Netherlands, but unfortunately that won't be until March as he is at Gaden in India at the moment.

[Caz]

This topic has been debated over and over on the forum so I am not sure why people keep pushing this thread. It is to the benefit of all of us not to allow DW to be dominated by this controversy. The civil atmosphere here is partly why DW has far more people paticipating that the other forums where endless discussions of this topic are allowed. People are tired of hearing about it and there are so many other topics related to Buddhism to discuss. It is to all of our benefit not to continually try to open discussions on this no matter what side of the fence you find yourself on.

I see this plain as day and am not sure why people cannot enjoy the forum without constantly trying to bring up this topic.

Supramundane deity in the aspect of a mundane deity has led to the tremendous confusion regarding these practices that has occured in the last 200 years or so.

The assertion that Sertrap is an enlightened being is not even held by all of the lamas at Gaden Shartse.

Geshe-la and I live at a centre where the senior teacher is a Ganden Jangtse geshe. He arrived in the early days so stayed with the Shartse monks and has expressed similar opinions. I can ask him specifically about this issue when he comes back to the Netherlands, but unfortunately that won't be until March as he is at Gaden in India at the moment.

Why do some not consider Setrap an enlightened being ?

As for the reason why some organisation do not rely on oracles "To me it is very clear that if we start seeking advice of the Buddha's through oracle mediums Buddhism can become a type of Shamanism. People will want to "talk directly to Buddha" through the oracle rather than rely on the teachings and qualified teachers who have studied "
Plus its more a cultural thing.

[JKhedrup]

Because he manifests through oracles and manifests as a gyalpo- as has been stated time and time again in other threads.


This is what my one friend from Ganden Shartse has told me. I will wait to follow this up more with the other Geshe at our centre (from Ganden)but it will have to wait until March. People can PM for a response.

Many of the monasteries have worldly protectors not just Shartse- at Sera Jey it is Chamseng, Sera Mey Thaog- they are respected as spiritual deities but not enlightened beings.

[Caz]

Because he manifests through oracles and manifests as a gyalpo- as has been stated time and time again in other threads.
This is what my one friend from Ganden Shartse has told me. I will wait to follow this up more with the other Geshe at our centre (from Ganden)but it will have to wait until March. People can PM for a response.

Oh I see so certain Lama's are confused about Setraps nature as an Emanation of Buddha Amitabha, It will be interesting to hear this Geshe's response but of course the only Lama's opinion who matters is that of HHDL it would be most wise to consult His Holiness.

[gregkavarnos]

I asked that since Hayagriva is enlightened if Gyalchen Karma Trinley might be as well.

His answer? "Of course not, Buddhas don't manifest through oracles. Why do you keep asking me about this?"

When I pressed further he mentioned his uncle and teacher (current abbot of Sera Jey)was at the ceremony as you can see in the video and if a Buddha appeared he surely would have mentioned it during their phone conversations.

Geshe la stated that Gyalpo and other worldly deities are not enlightened Buddhas, as Buddhas do not manifest through oracles. He said if people here check the teachings of HH Dalai Lama, the Karmapas and others they will maybe be convinced.


BTW this ceremony did not happen at Ganden as mentioned in the title, but at Sera Jey.

I think the key point here is that Enlightened beings never speak through oracles. Even in Tibetan traditional thinking, there is no space for “infallible” oracles.

BTW, great documentary on Tibetan oracles on youtube:

[JKhedrup]

It will be interesting to hear this Geshe's response but of course the only Lama's opinion who matters is that of HHDL it would be most wise to consult His Holiness

Your statements elsewhere make your feelings about HH perfectly clear.
Your sarcasm is in poor taste and does not win support for your cause.

If this discussion cannot remain civil I have no choice but to close the thread entirely.

That is why I stated I cannot understand why people keep on bringing up this issue, no opinions will change and it will only create conflict.

[gregkavarnos]

Thread temporarily locked for clean up.

[gregkavarnos]

Thread unlocked. People are reminded to abide by the Terms of Service and especially to keep in mind clause 5 (Discussion of Controversial Practices and Traditions) and clause 1 (All members are responsible for their own Right Speech), especially when referring to peoples teachers.

Keep it civil and on topic or I will forced to lock the thread pemanently.

[jmlee369]

It's interesting that the oracle's trance seemed to have ended prematurely. The oracle also seems rather spontaneous, so to speak; more so than the State oracles.

[Jikan]

Oh I see so certain Lama's are confused about Setraps nature as an Emanation of Buddha Amitabha,

Or they take a different position on the question from you. It is possible for intelligent people to simply disagree. Or perhaps the confusion is not theirs?