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" Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ? - Dhamma Wheel

" Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
morning mist
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" Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby morning mist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:23 pm

If a while back someone said " Germ doesn't exist." , is this considered a claim ? Is the person liable to explain how that is , or is it the case that as long as someone says that something doesn't exist, and there is no way to know, it should be regarded as a fact without a doubt ?

Is it reasonable to ask for further details or we should just accept it as is without the right to ask further.
with metta,

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Ben
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:08 am

Awhile back the best scientific knowledge was that germs didn't exist. However, through observation and the development of more sensitive instrumentation germs have been discovered to exist. The discovery of germs was confirmed many multiple times and the existence of germs is not a belief statement but a fact based on repeatable, observable evidence.
If someone then asserts that germs do not exist, despite the evidence, then the burden of proof would lie on that person to disprove the existence of germs. And I would wish them the very best of luck with that endeavour.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

morning mist
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby morning mist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:26 am

with metta,

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Ben
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:29 am

I don't think this is about germs, is it, morning mist?
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

morning mist
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby morning mist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:34 am

Last edited by morning mist on Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
with metta,

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Ben
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:41 am

I understand where you are coming from, morning mist.
The fact is that there is no evidence that supports the existence of devas. It does not mean that they don't exist. It just means we can not prove their existence - at this point in time.
The important thing is to take inspiration where you can and to continue to actually practice the Dhamma. Through penetration of the Dhamma all things relating to nama and rupa become known.
Wishing you the very best,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

morning mist
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby morning mist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:04 am

with metta,

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retrofuturist
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:19 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Kim OHara
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby Kim OHara » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:46 am


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Dhammabodhi
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby Dhammabodhi » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:46 am

In the absence of evidence, suspension of judgement is the only logical recourse.

:anjali:
Dhammabodhi
"Take rest, take rest."-S.N.Goenka

PeterB
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby PeterB » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:01 am


Sylvester
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby Sylvester » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:35 am


morning mist
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby morning mist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:49 pm

Hi everyone,

Thanks for sharing.

Claims that " germs didn't exist" or something doesn't exist are also claims and they are not infallible , therefore the person can't escape the responsibility of providing substantial support for that claim as well.
with metta,

PeterB
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby PeterB » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:10 pm

I assume that by "germs" you mean bacteria and viruses.
I have never ever heard anyone say that bacteria and viruses do not exist. They can be observed through a microscope. They can be cultured in a lab. If someone actually did say that they do not exist it would be a simple matter to prove them wrong. The entire scientific community accepts their existence, as do the vast majority of educated people.
So the onus of proof would be on those who claim that they do not exist.

Devas are of a different order. They cannot be proven. The few photos or films that purport to show them are so clearly faked or natural phenomena that they cannot be taken seriously.
No one outside of a minority of Buddhists and Hindus accepts their existence. The scientific community would certainly not accept their existence. Therefore the onus of proof is on those who accept the literal existence of such beings.

More importantly, if they COULD be shown to exist it would make no difference to my life or to the life of anyone I know, in the slightest.
Nothing in the 4NT or 8FP is dependent on the existence of devas. Or any other aspect of Buddhist Cosmology.

morning mist
Posts: 251
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby morning mist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:00 pm

with metta,

PeterB
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby PeterB » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:05 pm

I am unsure whether the problem in communication between us is linguistic or of a different understanding of the function of logic Morning Mist...
But I shall withdraw and this time stay withdrawn.

:anjali:

morning mist
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby morning mist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:11 pm

Peterb, perhaps you misunderstood. I agreed with you that Buddhism is not deva centered so it is not the focal point. The focus should be on the practice instead and not whether deva exist or not exist.
with metta,

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daverupa
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby daverupa » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:16 pm


morning mist
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby morning mist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:43 pm

with metta,

Jhana4
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Re: " Germs doesn't exist" is it considered a claim ?

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:27 pm

Morning Mist;

Starting with the ancient Greek philosophers and progressing through the modern scientific method there has been several thousands years of a Western intellectual tradition that have experimented with many ways of investigating the truth. What generally works and what generally doesn't work in finding the truth has been validated against several thousand years of thinking by the brightest minds and innumerable experiences. It is generally accepted by this tradition that the inability to prove 100% that something does not exist is not the same thing as there being a good chance that something does exist.

By insisting otherwise you are contradicting 2600 years of the best thinkers, the best experiments, debtes, etc.

You are putting yourself in a position similar to the one Christine O'Donnell did when she debated Coons at that law school and insisted that the U.S. Constitution does not mention the concept of separation of church and state......after that section was read aloud.

No disrespect to you. I am mentioning this so you will be aware that if you take this stance with people who have been educated in these areas you will risk making yourself look foolish.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.


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