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In the absence of vinnana there is...? - Page 6 - Dhamma Wheel

In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:45 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:59 am


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:22 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:10 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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retrofuturist
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:18 am

Greetings Ben,

If they are all experienced, then that is fine... they certainly qualify as vinnana.

:thumbsup:

Earlier I gave an example of a typical night's sleep - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9585&start=0#p147217 - and how that will consist of moments of the six-consciousnesses.

In the past I have actually had quite lucid experiences, even occasionally becoming aware that what is being experienced is a dream, and then paying mindful-attention satipatthana style, to the dream being experienced and its characteristics. Such experiences are certainly consciousness, regardless of how "deep" or otherwise someone might define the sleep.

On the flipside to those more lucid moments however, do you believe there are moments of non-consciousness, where there is no consciousness definable with reference to the six strands of consciousness? In other words, that there are "gaps" in consciousness, where consciousness is not experienced? (Experience of a dhamma being fundamental to something actually being a dhamma).

Or, as hypothesized by some others earlier in the topic, that there is a continuity of consciousness experienced with respect to the six-senses, but that it is just not remembered in the morning?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:58 am

Hi Paul
Yes, I read your earlier post. What I would ask you to consider is that perhaps those 'gap' times - consciousness is still present and is averting to this or that object. The fact that you are not presently aware (at the time of the experience) nor can you recall the experience does not indicate to me that consciousness and object were not present. Often on retreat I meditate throughout sleep from 9.30PM to 4AM. Sometimes it happens in daily life. If deep sleep was truely without consciousness then how does one explain one's tossing and turning, or manufacturing a dream around an external noise such as an alarm clock, or people doing strange things like sleep walking or having conversations in their sleep? I don't think they are disturbances as you alluded to earlier, I do think that consciousness is continuing to tick over during sleep and is averting to the dominant sensory object at the time.
Anyway, I've got trees to plant....
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]m..

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retrofuturist
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:53 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Travis » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:05 am

:goodpost:
Now... :zzz:

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:10 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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retrofuturist
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:19 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:27 am


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:41 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:44 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Sylvester
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Sylvester » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:02 am

A possible process explanation for fully unconscious sleep (if it exists) - the total absence of "corresponding engagement" (tajjo sammanaharo) in such sleep periods.

A possible explanation for why we cannot recollect every sleeping moment - the absence of sati in sleep.

As Ven Analayo would explain it, sati is simply the sustained presence of manasikara. As the Commentaries would have it, tajjo sammanaharo is manasikara.

So, upon what is manasikara dependant to establish phassa when one is first "conscious" of waking from sleep?

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:08 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:10 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
retrofuturist
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Posts: 17855
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:04 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:12 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:28 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:34 am



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