Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Will » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:17 pm

some1 wrote:
Will wrote:So around 1000 bce has been accepted by much of Chinese Buddhism for a long time.

Master YinShun, rejected B.C. 1029 as that is from an unreliable source. According to him, that was actually based on 『周書異記』written by some Taoists during the 6th century in China.


So what date did Master YinShun accept?
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby some1 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:18 am

Will wrote:So what date did Master YinShun accept?
He was confident with the Chinese texts which recorded that the Buddha's death is 116 years before Asoka's coronation "論佛滅的年代(民國46年): 依我的廣泛辨證,相信北傳的──中國華文教典所記載的佛滅百十六年而育王登位說,是最古典的,最可信賴的傳說了".

On Asoka's dates, he took from other scholars' findings that Asoka's death should be around 232 B.C. (See 佛滅紀年抉擇談) and Asoka's coronation was around 271-268 B.C. Hence, the date he gave for Buddha's death was 390-387 B.C.

(Note: All the above are from Master YinShun's writtings half a century ago. He was perhaps not an authoritative scholar in the subject, but I think we can certainly gain some knowledge from his perspectives and researches in the Chinese texts.)
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby tushar567 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:24 pm

Gautam Buddha was born in the year 1887 BC and was contempary to king Bimbisara of Magadha.There has been an accurate chronological order for various royal dynasties and kings of Magadha empire in Bhavishya Puran and which prove Buddha was born in 1887 BC.It has been proved time after time that Buddha was born in 1887 BC.But still the western historians are not ready to accept the correct date and are currently propogating wrong date of 583 BC.Why is it that their pyramids and sumerians have to be very old (inspite of not being that old as they think) and ours less old?I think time has come to stop giving importance to these fraud western historians and restore our correct history in our national education system.

for more info read these articles

http://www.viewzone.com/buddahyearx.html

http://tibetanaltar.blogspot.com/2007/1 ... -born.html
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Indrajala » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:24 pm

It isn't just western historians. Scholars of Indology and Buddhism here in Japan likewise have the same views on the birth and death dates of Shakyamuni.
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Will » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:12 pm

Then how is explained the compilation of the Pali canon around 200 bce and the first Mahayana sutras appearing around 100 ce? That would mean the oral tradition was precise and reliable for 1600 years. Plus the tradition now says the Ananda & other direct Arhat disciples were alive at the time of the Pali canon compilation. They would also be over 1500 years old!! Also we have to accept the traditional date of the Mahabharata war at 3100 bce.

So I am not ready to jump on this bandwagon yet.
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Huifeng » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:46 am

some1 wrote:
Will wrote:So what date did Master YinShun accept?
He was confident with the Chinese texts which recorded that the Buddha's death is 116 years before Asoka's coronation "論佛滅的年代(民國46年): 依我的廣泛辨證,相信北傳的──中國華文教典所記載的佛滅百十六年而育王登位說,是最古典的,最可信賴的傳說了".

On Asoka's dates, he took from other scholars' findings that Asoka's death should be around 232 B.C. (See 佛滅紀年抉擇談) and Asoka's coronation was around 271-268 B.C. Hence, the date he gave for Buddha's death was 390-387 B.C.

(Note: All the above are from Master YinShun's writtings half a century ago. He was perhaps not an authoritative scholar in the subject, but I think we can certainly gain some knowledge from his perspectives and researches in the Chinese texts.)


Actually, Yinshun is fairly strong authority in this area, though mainly represents the "northern tradition" of dating, rather than the "southern tradition", though he was aware of the latter (see my link above, for the difference between the two). In other words, he espouses the view of about 50% of specialists in this area.
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Huifeng » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:49 am

Will wrote:Then how is explained the compilation of the Pali canon around 200 bce and the first Mahayana sutras appearing around 100 ce? That would mean the oral tradition was precise and reliable for 1600 years. Plus the tradition now says the Ananda & other direct Arhat disciples were alive at the time of the Pali canon compilation. They would also be over 1500 years old!! Also we have to accept the traditional date of the Mahabharata war at 3100 bce.

So I am not ready to jump on this bandwagon yet.


The compilation of the Pali canon stretches over several centuries. The dates for the Mahayana are terminus ante quem (latest possible date), so could always be earlier.

Ananda was about 45 at the parinibbana, and lived to age 120, which means that he was still alive some 75 years after the parinibbana. Collation of the Pali canon would have started at this point, though definitely NOT finished.

Be very careful about dates from literature like the Mahabharata, puranas, etc. The standard Indian chronologies are vastly exaggerated. Even how "historic" they are is a big question.
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Huifeng » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:56 am

tushar567 wrote:Gautam Buddha was born in the year 1887 BC and was contempary to king Bimbisara of Magadha.There has been an accurate chronological order for various royal dynasties and kings of Magadha empire in Bhavishya Puran and which prove Buddha was born in 1887 BC.It has been proved time after time that Buddha was born in 1887 BC.But still the western historians are not ready to accept the correct date and are currently propogating wrong date of 583 BC.Why is it that their pyramids and sumerians have to be very old (inspite of not being that old as they think) and ours less old?I think time has come to stop giving importance to these fraud western historians and restore our correct history in our national education system.

for more info read these articles

http://www.viewzone.com/buddahyearx.html


Sourced without any citations, from a book which seems to use exclusively secondary sources.



Just some random Blog, without any sources.

The date is nothing to do with pyramids, sumerians or anything like that. It has to do with evidence.
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Aemilius » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:20 am

Dhammapade verses 153 & 154 describe the enlightenment of Buddha Shakyamuni with the metaphor of collapsing a house. This house has been explained as standing for ego, self and name and form.
The historical event of the collapsing of the Tower of Babel (Babylon) happened at the time of Shakyamuni's enlightenment as its outer symbolic event. Therefore the timing of Siddhartha Gautama must be at the same time period as the collapsing of the Tower of Babel.
Theists want to remove Siddhartha Gautama away from everything that he has done, we don't have to accept this.
Naturally theistic traditions also give an entirely negative view of the Complete and Perfect Enlightenment that took place then. Buddha Gautama discovered a truly universal teaching, this the theists declared to be "confusion of tongues".

Time is a fluid factor, as Nagarjuna has said. This is concretely true, though difficult to perceive.

At the time of Siddhartha Gautama the Indus River civilisation (India) was in close contact with the culture of Babylonia. Zarathustrian sources mention a Magi Gaumata, (who was an opponent of Zoroastrians), this has been told recently in http://www.americanbuddhist.net. The contact of buddhism with Babylonia and Persia is an age old controversy, tiring as such.
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Will » Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:37 pm

Aemilius: "must be at the same time period " Oh come now!

As for "Magi Gautama" - that name was not unique to our Buddha. There was Gautama who wrote a code of laws and another Gautama Rishi; there could have been more among the Vedic tradition of ancient India.
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Huifeng » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:44 am

Aemilius wrote:Dhammapade verses 153 & 154 describe the enlightenment of Buddha Shakyamuni with the metaphor of collapsing a house. This house has been explained as standing for ego, self and name and form.
The historical event of the collapsing of the Tower of Babel (Babylon) happened at the time of Shakyamuni's enlightenment as its outer symbolic event. Therefore the timing of Siddhartha Gautama must be at the same time period as the collapsing of the Tower of Babel.


Aemilius, this is real babel-talk.

Theists want to remove Siddhartha Gautama away from everything that he has done, we don't have to accept this.


And I doubt many of us will accept your babel-theory, either.

Naturally theistic traditions also give an entirely negative view of the Complete and Perfect Enlightenment that took place then. Buddha Gautama discovered a truly universal teaching, this the theists declared to be "confusion of tongues".

Time is a fluid factor, as Nagarjuna has said. This is concretely true, though difficult to perceive.

At the time of Siddhartha Gautama the Indus River civilisation (India) was in close contact with the culture of Babylonia. Zarathustrian sources mention a Magi Gaumata, (who was an opponent of Zoroastrians), this has been told recently in http://www.americanbuddhist.net. The contact of buddhism with Babylonia and Persia is an age old controversy, tiring as such.


Not as tiring as this.
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Seishin » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:05 pm

I had a read up about this "Magi Gotama" figure when I first read about the so called link on another Buddhist forum. The two don't even compare, and the website that suggests the link doesn't even have enough weight to back up the claim. :alien:
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Aemilius » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:01 pm

You fail to understand that the perfect and complete enlightenment of Siddhartha Gautama was a ground breaking event for the world history, it started a new era. Of it there remain only some feeble remains.
Many sutras of Hinyana and Mahayana describe how the earth shakes in six ways because the teaching of Dharma is very profound. Dharma has a deep impact.
The collapse of the Tower of Babel gives you the right idea of the immediate effect of Buddha Gautama's teaching and enlightenment. It was a shattering event. It reached far, its effect was felt everywhere.
The story of the Tower of Babylon is about the same thing as Setting in Motion of the Wheel of Dharma Sutra.
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Seishin » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:53 pm

Further reading on the Magi Gautama;

"Gautama the Magi, in the disguise of the brother of the murdered king Cambyses, seized the throne for a while, but was soon slain by Darius.....
The adventures of Gautama the Magian are recorded on the Behistun inscriptions, which add that Darius had rebuilt the sanctuaries which had been destoyed by Gautama...."

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=1443732958
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Indrajala » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:55 pm

Aemilius wrote:You fail to understand that the perfect and complete enlightenment of Siddhartha Gautama was a ground breaking event for the world history, it started a new era. Of it there remain only some feeble remains.
Many sutras of Hinyana and Mahayana describe how the earth shakes in six ways because the teaching of Dharma is very profound. Dharma has a deep impact.
The collapse of the Tower of Babel gives you the right idea of the immediate effect of Buddha Gautama's teaching and enlightenment. It was a shattering event. It reached far, its effect was felt everywhere.
The story of the Tower of Babylon is about the same thing as Setting in Motion of the Wheel of Dharma Sutra.


Ever consider that the Tower of Babylon was a fiction?
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby catmoon » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:30 am

Huseng wrote:Ever consider that the Tower of Babylon was a fiction?



Archaeologists examining the remains of the city of Babylon have found what appears to be the foundation of the tower: a square of earthen embankments some three-hundred feet on each side. The tower's most splendid incarnation was probably under King Nebuchadnezzar II who lived from 605-562 BC. The King rebuilt the tower to stand 295 feet high. According to an inscription made by the king the tower was constructed of "baked brick enameled in brilliant blue." The terraces of the tower may have also been planted with flowers and trees.

Constructing ziggurats on the Mesopotamian plain was not easy. The area lacks the stone deposits the Egyptians used effectively for their timeless monuments. The wood available is mostly palm, not the best for construction, so the people used what they had in abundance: mud and straw. The bulk of the towers were constructed of crude bricks made by mixing chopped straw with clay and pouring the results into molds. After the bricks were allowed to bake in the sun they were joined in construction by using bitumen, a slimey material imported from the Iranian plateau. Bitumen was used widely as a binding and coating material throughout the Mesopotamian plain.

The tower, referred to by the Babylonians as Etemenanki, was only one of the marvels of the city. Down the street was the Hanging Gardens, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. Nebuchadnezzar also had two impressive palaces inside the city. The final beginning of the end of the tower of Babel probably began around 478 BC. The city had been taken over by the Persian King Xerxes who crushed a rebellion there that year. The tower was neglected and crumbled .



I don't think the fiction theory is going to hold up....
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Indrajala » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:18 am

catmoon wrote:I don't think the fiction theory is going to hold up....


So there is one example of a tower being made and crumbling.

That doesn't validate what biblical fiction presents. People have built towers that have collapsed for one reason or another from one end of the planet to the other.
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby catmoon » Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:38 pm

Huseng wrote:
catmoon wrote:I don't think the fiction theory is going to hold up....


So there is one example of a tower being made and crumbling.

That doesn't validate what biblical fiction presents. People have built towers that have collapsed for one reason or another from one end of the planet to the other.



Well yes, but this one happens to be in Babylon, at the right time too. It is described in contemporary records. If it ain't the Tower of Babylon then what does you suppose it is? No one has ever asserted that the Tower of Babylon was actually located in Rome, fer instance.

BTW almost all the scholastics dismissed Jericho and the falling walls as myth until they dug it up. And Troy too.
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Re: Buddha born on 1800 BC? read this

Postby Aemilius » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:02 pm

Huseng wrote:
Aemilius wrote:You fail to understand that the perfect and complete enlightenment of Siddhartha Gautama was a ground breaking event for the world history, it started a new era. Of it there remain only some feeble remains.
Many sutras of Hinyana and Mahayana describe how the earth shakes in six ways because the teaching of Dharma is very profound. Dharma has a deep impact.
The collapse of the Tower of Babel gives you the right idea of the immediate effect of Buddha Gautama's teaching and enlightenment. It was a shattering event. It reached far, its effect was felt everywhere.
The story of the Tower of Babylon is about the same thing as Setting in Motion of the Wheel of Dharma Sutra.


Ever consider that the Tower of Babylon was a fiction?


Please consider what it says here how the story is found in many different sources http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel.
There is no reason to doubt its historicity.
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