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Cloned donor organs. - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Cloned donor organs.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
PeterB
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby PeterB » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:20 pm


chownah
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby chownah » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:01 pm


PeterB
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby PeterB » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:02 pm

I think the issue is fundamentally different. Choosing to adopt a particular diet isnt ( or at least should not be ) a matter of life and death for the eater. No one died for want of a pork chop, although many die for want of anything at all to eat.
Refusing a cloned organ for oneself or one's child obtained from a pig that a few years ago would only have existed to provide bacon could well be a matter of life and death.

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:10 pm

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PeterB
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby PeterB » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:26 pm

me too.

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octathlon
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby octathlon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:24 pm

My answer would be the same as David's for this question. No for me, yes for the kid, and if I was younger and without a sword of Damocles hanging over my head, probably yes for me as well.

It's a similar scenario to being stranded on a grass-covered island with cows but no food that you yourself could eat. You might be rescued if you can hold out long enough, which would require killing a cow to eat. Oh, and of course, you have a child with you, gotta have that part in there. :D

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:48 am

Heck, as I recall when I was in high school in the 1970's, there was an issue about transplanting a baboon's heart into a baby. The parents had a religious objection. It seems they subscribed to the belief the soul resided in the heart. My art teacher, who had an off-the-wall sense of humor, remarked that he wondered if they were worried that if they baby died whether it it would go to Baboon Heaven or Baby Hell? :tongue:

For me these questions are intellectual exercises for the amusement of the cogitator (is that a word?) You have "ethical" questions and pragmatic reality. Like the question of using deadly force to protect yourself and your family. This isn't even a question for me. If some miscreant shocks and awes his way through my front door or back window, he will find three nine millimeter slugs in him before he gets ten feet into my home. Sorry if this shocks any ariyans here; but I would try to stop him rather than kill.

Same for animal/human cloned organs; sorry about the dead swine, but this is one reason the Buddha said it was unfortunate to be born into the animal womb. People like to hunt animals, eat animals, animals eat each other, die from terrible accidents and illness, scientists use them for all kinds of awful experiments (well scientists have and still do use people for awful experiments too). Samsara really is unattractive isn't it? Think I will sit a while. Nibbanna awaits.

M4
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

PeterB
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby PeterB » Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:23 am

Would that it were for "amusement"....I think that risks being in denial. This is no longer hypothetical .
There is every reason to think that in Europe at least this use of DNA technology will become mainstream in the medium term.
This is no longer " baboon heart " type discussion which remains at the hypothetical level.

Mawkish1983
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:30 am

Maybe I misunderstood or didn't read things correctly (I'm not a biologist)... but wasn't the idea to modify the DNA of the pigs with DNA from humans (perhaps even making a chimaira species) such that the human DNA used is that of the recipient of the donor organ? That way the organ would be less likely to be rejected. If that's the case, I would very much doubt the rest of the animal would be eaten. Eating pig meat where half of its DNA is human is akin to canabalism... and eating pig meat where half of its DNA is your OWN DNA is suiphagism (not sure if that's a word, but I mean "self eating").

So, the animal would be speficially bred for the human to be treated and I am seriously doubtful the meat would be eaten by anyone.

Does that affect anyone's views about this type of treatment?

PeterB
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby PeterB » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:32 am

I dont think they would be eaten anyway because they will be raised in semi lab conditions and each pig will be worth a great deal of money. I dont see anyone pay premium prices to eat a lab animal.

chownah
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby chownah » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:51 pm


PeterB
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby PeterB » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:03 pm

In the UK anyone receiving such an organ will pay nothing.

I dont know what will happen to the carcass, but it will contain human dna..........which carries all sorts of implications in terms of public health. The complexity of the debate will make that about GM crops look very mild. Its not my field of medicine but I suspect the carcass will be incinerated post haste.

I am not sure whether you are simply not getting the issue chownah or whether you would simply prefer another discussion instead. I suspect the latter.

Either way you dont need me to hang around. Toodle pip.

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:52 pm

Amputated human parts are usually incinerated, so I would think this would be the case with the 'extraneous' remainder of the operation; ie, the rest of the unnecessary animal. Seems like a more humane solution would be to clone non-sentient human torsos. That should get the Fundamentalists up in a tizzy.

M4
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:42 pm

Concerning the proposition of the greater welfare existing on the foundation of another being's suffering, there is a rather dark short story by Ursula K Le Guin which I read as a youngster which stuck with me for decades. Those Who Walk Away from Omelas. Read here. It is excellent. And quite addresses the topic I think. Sometimes the poets get there first and best.

Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

chownah
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby chownah » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:47 pm


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octathlon
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby octathlon » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:02 pm

I haven't found anything about putting human DNA into pigs. I found some articles about cloning pigs and genetically modifying them to reduce the immuno-response that would cause a human to reject the transplant.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 112855.htm
http://articles.cnn.com/2002-01-03/heal ... =PM:HEALTH

The other type of research that I have read a lot about the last few years is that of growing organs in the lab. This has already been successfully done with bladders and urethras--and ears.
http://articles.cnn.com/2006-04-03/heal ... =PM:HEALTH
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/specialse ... Order.html
Working on kidneys and livers too
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 111057.htm

Peter, if you already have a good link about the research that is actually using human DNA in the pigs, I would be interested to read it. That would certainly open up a can of worms.

EDIT to add this TED talk on lab-engineered replacement organs:
http://www.ted.com/talks/anthony_atala_ ... issue.html

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:53 pm

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Platypus
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Re: Cloned donor organs.

Postby Platypus » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:49 am

I would sign, I take gelatin coated capsules when I take some pills. I would use pig insulin and things like that if it meant staying alive. I take medicine knowing full well that it was tested on animals. However I would probably feel pretty disgusted at myself. However if it was someone else, say for my child i wouldn't. I would have the kamma they would be alive. Small price to pay really.


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