"Son of Buddha"you do realise that Enlightenement is described in the suttas/sutras don't you?since you do not wish to answer my question would you please tell me how the SUTRAS discribe Enlightenement?
also does the Sutras ever discribe Enlightenement as being permenant/eternal/everlasting/and unchanging?
Please Explain(also can you source where in the sutra or tantras this view comes from)
"futerko"Yes they do, and this clearly from the point of view of the relative rather than absolute.
I have a wooden table in front of me, if I torch the table then the idea of "this table" is gone, but does the ash disappear from existence? I have no idea what you mean by impermanent outside of the concept itself. Of course there is change and impermanence in relative terms, but in absolute terms nothing has come into or gone out of existence. Therefore the idea of permanence and impermanence is a purely relative concept.
*again you have not provided a passage from the sutras to show that your view is indeed correct and in line with what is taught in the sutras.
*you state that by relative terms there is change and impermenance(hence apart of dependent origination/Ignorance)(hence since realitive is changeing the absolute would be unchangeing correct?)realitive would be impermenant absolute would be permenant correct)
* and you state that in Absolute terms nothing has come into or gone out of existance.hence that it is permenant,eternal,everlasting,being uncreate its hasnt come into existance it doesnt go out of existance it is unchanging.
Mahaparinirvana sutra chapter 7
The Buddha said to Kasyapa: "Or there may be good men and women who may say: "The Tathagata is non-eternal. How can we know that he is non-eternal? The Buddha says that when the fire of illusion is extinguished, there is Nirvana. This is as when there is nothing [left over] to be seen when the fire is extinguished. The same is the case when all illusions are annihilated. This, he says, is Nirvana. How can the Tathagata claim that he is the Dharma eternal and unchanging? The Buddha says that when we part from existence, there is Nirvana. In this Nirvana, there cannot be anything that exists. How, then, can the Tathagata be eternal and unchanging? When a piece of clothing is torn, we do not call it anything. The same with Nirvana. When all illusions are done away with, there can be no thing. How can the Tathagata be eternal and unchanging? The Buddha says that separation from desire and arrival at quietude is Nirvana. If a person's head is cut off, there is no head any more. The same with separation from desire and arrival at quietude. What there is is Voidness. There is nothing there. Hence, Nirvana. How can the Tathagata be eternal and unchanging? The Buddha says:
[This is as in the case of heated iron.
When beaten by a hammer, sparks shoot out.
These flash and die out; nothing remains.
The same applies to attaining emancipation.
Once the muddle of carnal desire has been crossed,
One gains the immovable state.
One no longer has a place to move to].
"How can the Tathagata be one eternal and unchanging?" O Kasyapa! One who reproaches me thus commits slander, which is wrong. O Kasyapa! You must not entertain such a notion and say that the nature of the Tathagata perishes. O Kasyapa! We do not place the annihilation of illusion in the category of matter [rupa]. Why not? Because of the fact of the ultimacy of Eternity. Hence, we say Eternal. [Nirvanic] quietude has nothing to supercede it. All phenomenal existences are done away with, with nothing remaining. This indicates what is fresh, clear, eternal, and unretrogressive. That is why we say that Nirvana is eternal. It is the same with the Tathagata. He is eternal, with no change. "Stars sweep". This refers to illusion. Once swept, all is gone and no trace remains of any existence. This indicates that all Tathagatas are those who have done away with illusion and are no longer in the five realms. This means that the Tathagata is one eternal and that there is no change [with him]. Also next, O Kasyapa! It is the Dharma which is the teacher of all Buddhas. Hence, the Tathagata respectfully makes offerings. As the Dharma is eternal, so too are all Buddhas eternal."
Bodhisattva Kasyapa said again to the Buddha: "If the flame of illusion dies out, the Tathagata must also die out. This indicates that there can be no ground where the Tathagata is eternal. This is similar to the situation in which hot iron slag can no longer be seen when the red colour disappears. The same with the Tathagata and illusion. Gone, there is no other pace to go to. And it is like the case of iron. The heat and the red colour gone, there remains nothing to be seen. The same with the Tathagata. Once extinguished, what remains is non-eternal. The fire of illusion done away with, he enters Nirvana. This tells us that the Tathagata is non-eternal." "O good man! The iron you speak of refers to common mortals. Illusion done away with, the common mortal comes about again. That is why we say non-eternal. This is not the case with the Tathagata. Gone, there is no coming about. Hence, eternal." Kasyapa further said to the Buddha: "If we place the colour-robbed iron back into the fire, the red colour will return. It it is thus with the Tathgata, illusion will again form. If illusion again forms, this is nothing but the non-eternal." The Buddha said: "O Kasyapa! Do not say that the Tathagata is non-eternal. Why not? Because the Tathagata is one Eternal. O good man! When wood is burnt, extinction comes about, and there remain behind the ashes. When illusion is done away with, there remains Nirvana. All such parables as of the torn garment, beheading and broken earthenware enunciate the same truth. All such things have such names as torn garment, beheading, and broken earthenware. O Kasyapa! The iron that has become cold can be made hot again. But this is not the case with the Tathagata. Illusion once done away with, what there is is utmost purity and coolness. The blazing flame never comes back again. O Kasyapa! Know that the situation of innumerable beings is like that of the iron. With the blazing fire of Wisdom free from the “asravas” [defilements], I now burn off the bonds of illusion of all beings." Kasyapa said further: "It is good, it is good that I now clearly see what the Tathagata means when he says that all Buddhas are eternal."
this is what i mean about Impermenance.
also my friend I have already shown that SELF means permenant/eternal/everlasting/and unchanging,and you yourself has stated that the sutras DO STATE that the Buddha is permenant/eternal/everlasting/and unchanging (hence the True Self)so you yourself do admit that the True Self exists in Buddhism and Buddhist sutras
(of course in your view as realitive)
so why are you argueing against the idea of the true Self when you already knew that it exists in the Sutras? why not save the many pages and just state yea True Self is taught in the Sutras and I view it as Relative,and then support your views with sutras that make the SAME claims??