Filesharing - Movies etc

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uan
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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby uan » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:51 pm

We could rephrase BML's question as "should things that get people more entrenched in Samara be more universally distributed for free?" :tongue:

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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:06 pm

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

uan
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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby uan » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:44 pm


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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:54 pm

That's Louis CK and yeah, completely accurate.

I remember when the internet was just becoming a thing, I was 17 or so, it was incredible. We didn't even have real web browsing yet, and everyone still had dialup for the most part- at best. Most people (those who were willing to invest the time) used a Unix shell login to access things like email and newsgroups. Some had AOL or Compuserve that wanted ease of use. Now the internet is this all pervasive thing, and you can do more on your phone than you could 20 years ago on the nicest of PC's. And yet, we can see the uses the technology normally gets put to...it has it's good points, but it shows how our samsaric minds transform things to conform to their longings, shortcomings, and neuroses.

I know it makes me sound like an old man (not quite there yet I don't think) but i'm often amazed by how much the generations that grew up in the midst of this stuff take it for granted. I live in a place where we regularly lose power, the first thing people say when I tell them this is "well at least you have a mobile phone"..but I don't, when I tell them that they just look at me weird.

I like that technology allows for things like this forum, the huge amount of free access to Buddhist scripture, and many other positives..but it is good to do without sometimes and in some ways, and to feel out where we have addictive behaviors toward it I think - I know I certainly have them.
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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Indrajala » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:31 am

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

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Sara H
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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Sara H » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:40 am

Uan you are confusing legality with morality.

Illegal does not equal theft. Nor does it equal immoral.

You are confusing copyright violation with theft.

It is not.

A copyright, is a contract of sorts.

It says I the recipient agree to give the originator certain rights.

If I violate that agreement I am in breech of contract, but breaching a contract is not stealing.

When I buy a dvd, I don't sign a document that says I agree to bestow certain rights and agree to follow certain restrictions.

It's my property.

And indeed, when someone uploads a file to share, it is that uploader who may be violating the agreement. The downloaders were never party to the agreement and are not bound by it.

Loss of money does not mean stealing.


You can say whatever you want about a "slippery slope" Uan. That's just a persuasion technique.

Just because some of these companies are loosing money, doesn't mean it's being "stolen" from them.

The problem is theirs.

If I come up with a cool way to fold an origami dragon with paper, make them for sale, and somebody buys my origami dragon, takes it apart, learns how to fold it, and then folds a bunch more and gives them to their friends, they aren't stealing from me. Nor are their friends stealing from me by receiving the gift.

Am I loosing money?

Yes.

But who's fault is that?

Mine.

For being stupid enough to try to sell something that anyone can copy with a piece of paper.
Perhaps, in this alternate universe world, paper used to only be available to lots of money,
and selling origami used to actually be a viable business option.

And now, somebody invented mass paper, and I can't sell origami dragons any more.

But that's life. I can't make technology flow backwards, I have to accept it, move on.
Get out of the business, or change my business plan or model.

That's the way things are.

The U.S. Postal service is completely bankrupt.

Why?

Email.

Are people who send emails stealing from postal service employees by not buying stamps and envelopes and sending letters with paper?

No.

Technology changed. They need to adapt.
And they may end up shut down, or probably severely downsized.

Should we all pay taxes to subsidize jobs of people who do little more than stick juckmail (paper spam) in our inboxes?


Things change.

That's the way it is.

The days of people making tons of money buying windows software in large paper boxes with nothing more than a cd and a couple sheets of paper inside them are over.

The days of people making tons of money selling records and dvd's are over.

That ship has sailed.

It's time for new things.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
Last edited by Sara H on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Sara H » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:08 am

Uan I think you're just buying into MPAA propaganda.

It's like those commercials that are loaded into DVD's now.

Imagine a Postal Service commercial of the same:

"You wouldn't steal a Purse!

You wouldn't steal a DVD!

Pirating Letters (emailing) is Stealing!!

Stealing is Against the Law!!!"

-Brought to you by the U.S. Postal Service... (because we're loosing lots of money to emailing..)
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Karma Dorje » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:19 am

Don't be stupid people. If it was theft, you would get charged with theft. There is not a single country that charges you with theft. You are charged with copyright violation. QED. It is illegal but it is not theft.

Theft can only be of a scarce resource, i.e. you must deprive someone of something they already have. You can't steal something without depriving someone of an actual thing, whether in terms of Buddhist morality or legality. Digitally reproducing any work does not deprive anyone of a scarce resource, in fact it makes the resource less scarce by producing an identical copy. You are not *taking* anything. Throughout the history of dharma, copying has been the means that dharma was passed on. Moreover, most of the great writers and thinkers borrowed liberally and without attribution from previous authors because if something had been expressed well, there was no point in reinventing the wheel. If you want to convince yourself that you are violating some buddhist tenet by copying a file then knock yourself out, I just think back to all of the texts from the library I photocopied for my guru over the years.

It's quite aside from this how one feels about remunerating authors, artists, developers for their hard work. Translators and indie musicians in particular can have a pretty tenuous existence-- they really need our support. Copyright, particularly when taken to the lengths that the DMCA goes in the US is ridiculous and a prime reason why I use open source software whenever there is a viable solution.
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uan
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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby uan » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:17 am

Just so we're clear on how the movie industry really works:

Because even communists understand IP and distribution. :lol:

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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:29 am

From a Buddhist perspective though, is it really about this concept of whether or not it's officially "stealing"?

If you break it down into it's essential components, i'd say that it is ultimately just about whether or not what you are taking, consuming, copying whatever is freely given or not. If it is not, and requires some extra effort to be obtained then it does not matter whether or not you want to define it as stealing, it is the volitional act of willfully taking something that you know, in some sense, however misguided, you are not supposed to take in the manner you are - even if you "should" be able to. Arguably trying to base your actions on how things "should" be to justify an action is detrimental to applying Dharma..don't you think?

Again i'm not arguing one side or the other, the truth of this to me is being able to apply the precepts to reason out this confusing area, there are always grey areas, and certainly places where i'm just fine with not adhering to a strict rule about it. There are issues of law and justice here that point in a different direction than Dharma does at times, and if I look through that lens, my viewpoint is that for the most part copyright law is absolute nonsense. However, I don't think looking just at worldy laws and concepts of justice is necessarily the "correct" answer about how to conduct our personal actions from a Buddhist point of view.
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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Karma Dorje » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:47 am

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:22 am

I feel like you either misconstrued what I wrote, or simply haven't read enough of the thread to see the nuances of the things i've talked about.

I specifically said it very well might not be theft, but that whether or not you define it as that is hardly the point, I am not sure what exactly you're arguing against, but it seems only tangentially related to what I wrote.

From a standpoint of volitional action, is "copying" something that is not freely given better than "taking" something which is not freely given...from a moral perspective, or even a logical one this seems like a really dodgy argument. Whether it directly harms someone also is not the only question, there are plenty of times where actual taking of physical things not given also does not harm anyone at all..is it ok then?

I have been around for EVERY stink the recording industry has made since it starting bitching about the ability to record on cassettes then DATs, the CD's etc. I don't need to be lectured on that, I also am married to an attorney so i've seen plenty of the actual law, including it's egregious abuses. None of this though excuses a Buddhist from following the precepts, it's as if people are trying to apply a wordly view of "well everything should be free anyway" to a decision which, by nature requires mindfulness of one's actions in each circumstances regarding whether or not something is freely given for your use - not just a blanket answer.

As has been mentioned, there are definitely grey areas where I would download copyrighted material, such as the movie and music examples give earlier. However the idea that this is purely a cut and dried issue of huge industries abusing copyright law doesn't hold water at all, I could look on Pirate Bay or something similar right now and there would be (for instance) plenty of games by indie game makers (who incidentally make actual creative, interesting games instead of swill) that make hardly any money.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:45 am, edited 7 times in total.
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uan
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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby uan » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:23 am


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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Karma Dorje » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:58 am

Enough with the straw men, you two. I have never once said that we should pirate *anything* to stick it to The Man. I have simply said it is not theft, either from a Buddhist or a legal perspective and I am tired of this old saw being trotted out. A filmmaker is a businessperson. There are legal avenues to pursue if someone pirates their movie and they should certainly do so. There are laws against copyright infringement. Someone pirating the film is breaking the law and is subject to the consequences of their action. I don't think the recording industry is evil, whatever that is. It's a business. They use their lobbying power to get preferential treatment, just like everyone else. Copyright is a legal and an economic issue, not a moral one.

What I have said is that there is nothing in pratimoksha that even *remotely* prohibits copying texts, music or movies. You can not deprive someone of something they do not possess. The argument that by pirating, one deprives the artist of future revenue may be valid legally, but it makes no sense in terms of buddhist morality.

When a new text comes out that I am interested in, I buy a copy. I then digitize it so that I can carry my tablet with me with my complete library. This breaks copyright laws, but I'll be damned if it is immoral. What I am saying has nothing to do with semantics. It's a simple fact. Were there only a semantic difference between copyright infringement and theft, there wouldn't need to be all of these new laws on the books.

Sorry, man. Homey don't play that.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:08 am

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Karma Dorje » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:40 am

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Indrajala » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:36 pm

Strictly speaking, you have to physically move something perceived as belonging to another from its original location for the act to constitute theft.

As far as the Buddhist manuals on precepts go, there is no such thing as stealing songs, intellectual property or copyright material.
tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

uan
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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby uan » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:26 pm


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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby uan » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:44 pm


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Re: Filesharing - Movies etc

Postby Indrajala » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:05 pm

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |


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