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Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:58 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:01 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:29 am


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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:04 am


PeterB
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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby PeterB » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:34 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:47 am

Hi Retro,

Ven Nananada has an opinion. Bhikkhu Bodhi has an opinion. You have an opinion. I have an opinion. That's fine. I quite like Ven Nananda, but as far as I'm concerned he's one particular scholar monk with some interesting analysis. He doesn't "trump" Bhikkhu Bodhi, he just has a different view on some particular technicalities. As I've pointed out before, he doesn't shy away from the more "cosmological" language, including invoking Mara:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9494&start=40#p146297

Personally I tend towards the line that I understand Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ven Thanissaro, and others to be expounding. (Based on reading their books/essays and listening to a number of their talks.) They discuss both "psychological" and "cosmological" approaches and the message is, to me, that both approaches are useful.

Of course, I do think that Ven Nananada (among others) makes some interesting and valid points, and his take on papanca has been the accepted interpretation for several decades.

So, in summary, I'm clinging to the opinion that clinging to, or trying to "prove", one approach over the other is not possible. Both, in the opinion I cling to, are useful.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:51 am


chownah
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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby chownah » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:48 pm

I think the Buddha is very clear in defining the extent of The World and The All and that these things are intended to describe the world as it is understood as being the universe and so it seem to me that it also includes all of what is referred to as "cosmology"....and since The World and The All are composed entirely of fabricated things it seems that their description also includes what is referred to as "psychology".
"Cosmology" and "Psychology" are both fabricated things they are thoughts which arise when conditions are right for them to arise and which do not arise when conditions are right for them to not arise. These two can be viewed as doctrines of self. Cosmology is the doctrine of self that ascribes a self to things we see as being external....it is what is sometimes called the "real word" but according to the Buddha's teaching it is empty of self and seeing things as satisfying some cosmological criteria is just an excursion into doctrine of self for "external" things. Psychology is the doctrine of self that ascribes a self to things we see as being internal....it is used to describe my psychological make up or condition but according to the Buddha's teaching I am empty of self and it is a mistake to take fabricated things which are seen as being internal and using them to define a self.

So....the two approaches seem to be both grounded in doctrine of self....cosmology is directed to things we view as being external and psychology is direted to things we view as being internal.....I guess....I don't know for sure....

chownah

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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby Travis » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:01 pm

In the end both the psychological view and cosomological view are just views, right? A view by its very nature points more towards conditioned preference than anything else. By that I mean that seeing it one way or the other simply illustrates how one habitually regards one's experience. I don't think that trying to understand correctly will lead to regarding the world as out there or in here, but rather giving up the need/habit to hold such views. In any case neither view really affects the relinquishment of suffering as much as perpetuate it, so it seems that it might be best to regard either view as more of an unfortunate consequence than a useful view.

In regards to "the middle of the extremes" I think it is worth keeping in mind that the middle path may not be the luke warm between the duality of hot and cold, but an entirely different position that rejects the validity of either extremes.

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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby Travis » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:45 pm

The same could also be said about views regarding rebirth/reincarnation, as well as the hells and the heavenly realms. Personally I see how kamma plays out in a simple way through the course of one day, so it isn't hard for me to understand that this could influence the next day, be influenced by the previous day, and play out over an entire life, 3 lives, or an infinite number of lives. Knowing which one in particular seems inconsequential. I have also yet to come across any sutta that refers to any of these as anything other than a consequence/consolation, or a stage set up to get a certain point across. If I get the point and I can understand that there are consequences, then what does it matter precisely what they are? Again even a simple consequence of my wrong intention is enough for me to put forth corrective effort. If I aspire for release then shouldn't it be a priority to attain it now in this life, no matter how it plays out?
Last edited by Travis on Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:00 pm


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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:02 pm


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Travis
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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby Travis » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:28 pm


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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:38 pm


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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby kirk5a » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:44 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:56 pm


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Travis
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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby Travis » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:07 pm

All that I am suggesting is that maybe BOTH a psychological or cosmological view AND a psychological + cosmological view are missing the point by trying to establish a certainty in an uncertain and perhaps even irrelevant matter. It seems like trying to figure out who shot the arrow to me...

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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby PeterB » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:12 pm

Last edited by PeterB on Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:13 pm


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Re: Buddhism: 2 kinds of approach

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:17 pm



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