Investigating fake lamas

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:26 pm

lama tsewang wrote:I was not trying to make any personal attack , with my previous post.
I am trying to show how dangerous some of these statements can be .

I am reminded of what Nagarjuna , or rather what i have bee told, That it is much more dangerous to be attached to emptiness , than to be attached to following precepts and being attached to relative truth
tsewang


Who said anything about emptiness? Nagarjuna was referring to nihilists saying that there was no such thing as cause and effect and then neither sowing the seeds of positive results nor avoiding harming others which is obviously a catastrophe. I have not made any such claim. I am simply saying that Vajrayana is by nature dangerous, requires sharp faculties, honesty about one's capability and a strong conscience.

As Woody Guthrie said,

"I love a good man outside the law, just as much as I hate a bad man inside the law."
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
~Arthur Carlson
User avatar
Karma Dorje
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:28 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Dude, it doesn't turn to shit becaue of the vows/precepts themselves, like it doesn't turn to shit due to the tantric practice itself. Just that it is MUCH easier for the tantric practice to turn to shit on all fronts. What do I mean by this? If somebody screws up their vows via egoism and pride at least they will gain the benefit of having kept the vows and not having engaged in unholesome actions. If somebody screws up their tantric practice for the same reason, well the outcome is a (vajra) hell of a lot worse for them.
:namaste:


So now you are arguing my point that Vajrayana is inherently dangerous. Good.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
~Arthur Carlson
User avatar
Karma Dorje
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:37 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:So now you are arguing my point that Vajrayana is inherently dangerous. Good.
:zzz: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11409&start=60#p146657 If you're going to engage in discussion it is a good idea to read all of the discussion.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9784
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby lama tsewang » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:46 pm

but what of the tantric prexcepts they require that someone follow all the conventional silas and much more
Verry few, including myself , have learned them well, and yet they are the life blood of the vajrayana path.
tsewang
lama tsewang
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:08 pm

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:15 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:So now you are arguing my point that Vajrayana is inherently dangerous. Good.
:zzz: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11409&start=60#p146657 If you're going to engage in discussion it is a good idea to read all of the discussion.


As much as it has pained me, I read everything you contributed to the conversation. :)
Last edited by Karma Dorje on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
~Arthur Carlson
User avatar
Karma Dorje
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:18 pm

lama tsewang wrote:but what of the tantric prexcepts they require that someone follow all the conventional silas and much more
Verry few, including myself , have learned them well, and yet they are the life blood of the vajrayana path.
tsewang


The tantric precepts are much harder to keep than the pratimoksha. If you can keep samaya, all of the rest is complete in that.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
~Arthur Carlson
User avatar
Karma Dorje
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:51 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:As much as it has pained me, I read everything you contributed to the conversation. :)
:rolling:
The feeling is mutual! :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9784
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Yudron » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:13 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:As much as it has pained me, I read everything you contributed to the conversation. :)
:rolling:
The feeling is mutual! :tongue:


In this conversation I could take either "side," the point is to be aware of the pitfalls in either extreme.
Yudron
 
Posts: 1054
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:22 am

Drinking wine and eating meat can also be due to conditioning. Oaky, if you were living in a medieval Brahamanic society, with its extreme emphasis on purity, then it would be transgressive, but right now drinking wine and eating meat is the norm. Go into any cafe, bar, restaurant, etc... and see what is happening. What do you see? The triumphal reign of tantrism or the Mara of conditioned habit? I know what I see. Seems the description for transg
ressive has changed since Saraha was around. Now it is transgressive to be able to successfully maintain the five precepts. Wouldn't you agree.


Excellent point. To be transgressive these days you'd have to go on a weeklong ketamine and crystal meth binge followed by an orgy. Wine and vanilla sex just don't cut it anymore.

I think I'll stick to my boring, unimaginative celibate lifestyle thanks.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:24 am

If you have an opinion, the act isn't spontaneous wisdom.
deepbluehum
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Karma Dorje » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:25 am

JKhedrup wrote:Excellent point. To be transgressive these days you'd have to go on a weeklong ketamine and crystal meth binge followed by an orgy. Wine and vanilla sex just don't cut it anymore.

I think I'll stick to my boring, unimaginative celibate lifestyle thanks.


Hey, that image came from *your* imagination, not mine! ;)
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
~Arthur Carlson
User avatar
Karma Dorje
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:39 am

Karma Dorje wrote:Vajrayana is *meant* to be transgressive. Look at the life of Saraha. Drinking wine and eating meat is meant to overcome conditioning (as well as the effect it has on one's channels and winds). It's not meant to just condition you to a new normal. Realization is the ultimate transgressive act.


I think that kinda stopped the moment Indo-tibetan Vajrayana grew into an institution. Being transgressive is fine when one is a wandering siddha living on the fringe of society. Not when one is the head of a lineage with lots of monasteries - that tends to cause more problems than it is worth.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica
User avatar
pueraeternus
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Konchog1 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:38 am

JKhedrup wrote:
Drinking wine and eating meat can also be due to conditioning. Oaky, if you were living in a medieval Brahamanic society, with its extreme emphasis on purity, then it would be transgressive, but right now drinking wine and eating meat is the norm. Go into any cafe, bar, restaurant, etc... and see what is happening. What do you see? The triumphal reign of tantrism or the Mara of conditioned habit? I know what I see. Seems the description for transg
ressive has changed since Saraha was around. Now it is transgressive to be able to successfully maintain the five precepts. Wouldn't you agree.


Excellent point. To be transgressive these days you'd have to go on a weeklong ketamine and crystal meth binge followed by an orgy. Wine and vanilla sex just don't cut it anymore.

I think I'll stick to my boring, unimaginative celibate lifestyle thanks.
There are still ways.

You can take tips from 2nd Serkong Dorje Chang. Or from the Aghori.

http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-ri ... chang.html
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
User avatar
Konchog1
 
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby muni » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:05 am

Some quotes from Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye Rinpoche from the posted website.

...it is difficult to recognize an authentic teacher, because these qualities are internal. We can not depend upon external factors, but external factors are what we see. It is very difficult to see the inner qualities of another person.

...Am I seeking a teacher in order to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings, or am I seeking to fulfill my need to acquire the prestige associated with a famous teacher, or am I merely attracted to a lama's beautiful retreat land or the social scene of a hip sangha, and so on.

These motivations need to be acknowledged if we are to recognize an authentic wisdom teacher, because the teacher you find is related to your karma, and your karma is intimately connected to your motivation.

Fortunately, there are methods that help us purify our motivation and create the proper conditions for finding a wisdom teacher, such as bringing our awareness to our motivations as much as possible, doing daily meditation practice".

Finally the only way to conquer all the fake ones is by to see fake me, then true help can be.
muni
 
Posts: 2945
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Dhyani Ywahoo-Khandro? Cherokee Chief?

Postby mahabuddha » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:48 am

Harold wrote:Do anyone know anything about this woman Dhyani Ywahoo who claims to be both a Cherokee Chief and a Tibetan Khandro.
There are a lot of websites that claim that she's a fake Cherokee. It appears that she claims Dujom Rinpoche gave her the very high title of Khandro.
Thanks
The status of someone's Cherokee connection isn't really the topic of this forum. Instead of counting everyone else's sheep it might be more beneficial to mind one's own sheep.
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Added quote to ensure continuity
mahabuddha
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 3:33 am

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Jikan » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:15 pm

JKhedrup wrote:
I think I'll stick to my boring, unimaginative celibate lifestyle thanks.


I'd argue that the path of the Vinaya may be more transgressive of contemporary cultural conventions than falling into a ketamine hole. Withdrawing from consumerism (including the consumption of sexuality), on purpose, may be a radical act. This is, in my poor opinion, a very good thing.

sorry for the :offtopic:
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5282
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:16 pm

Jikan wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:
I think I'll stick to my boring, unimaginative celibate lifestyle thanks.


I'd argue that the path of the Vinaya may be more transgressive of contemporary cultural conventions than falling into a ketamine hole. Withdrawing from consumerism (including the consumption of sexuality), on purpose, may be a radical act. This is, in my poor opinion, a very good thing.

sorry for the :offtopic:



It can also be seen as an assault on freedom to suggest that lust is a mental poison.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5958
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Japan

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:46 pm

Of course my comments were in jest but pointing at the permisiveness in society. Drinking, drugs and irreponsible sex (ie unprotected or with multiple partners) are the norm rather than transgressive.
If these behaviour weren't harmful I wouldn't say anything but we know they can cause very serious suffering. Because of the Christian Right's domination around issues of values unfortunately ethics/morality are linked to conservative social values, as soon as abstinence or monogamy are mentioned people cringe. But that is because we have yet to establish an ethical framework that doesn't condemn but acts as a system to support society.

I am not advocating celibacy as a liftestyle choice for any more than a small minority of people. But I must say honestly that sometimes I feel discrimminated against because of my choices. People seem to think celibacy turns every young person into a withdrawn neurotic terrified of going for a walk because they might see cleavage.

No one forced me to make this choice and I am not a prisoner. I chose it because I felt it enhanced my spiritual practice and because it is a way of life praised by Lord Buddha and countless other realized beings.

You'd be surprised at some of the comments/concerns that I hear from people on a regular basis about my "unhealthy decision".
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Yudron » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:20 pm

If people are going to argue that a celibacy is bad for one's health or good for one's health in this day and age there needs to be some scientific evidence for it. I'm going to start another thread on this question.
Yudron
 
Posts: 1054
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Knotty Veneer » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:22 pm

JKhedrup wrote:I am not advocating celibacy as a liftestyle choice for any more than a small minority of people. But I must say honestly that sometimes I feel discrimminated against because of my choices. People seem to think celibacy turns every young person into a withdrawn neurotic terrified of going for a walk because they might see cleavage.

No one forced me to make this choice and I am not a prisoner. I chose it because I felt it enhanced my spiritual practice and because it is a way of life praised by Lord Buddha and countless other realized beings.

You'd be surprised at some of the comments/concerns that I hear from people on a regular basis about my "unhealthy decision".


I know how you feel. I am not celibate but I made a conscious decision in my twenties not to marry or have children. It's just not how I want to spend my life. I want to be free to practise and not be tied to a job I don't like because I have family commitments.

Most people I know look at me as if I'm an alien. Secretly, I think they believe it is an excuse for not being able to attract a life partner.

For my part, I just cannot fathom why someone would want to put all their life energy into raising kids. It just seems a crazy thing to do when there is so much to learn and experience in the world.
Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.
Knotty Veneer
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Tibetan Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Tanaduk and 21 guests

>