precious human body not so precious in Dzogchen as in HYT

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precious human body not so precious in Dzogchen as in HYT

Postby Mariusz » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:57 am

It is said for the most powerful practices for gaining enlightenment during one's own life one has to have a body made of 4 elements, channels and drops. According to HYTantras the best and only is a human body but it is also possible a body in special pure land of Vajrayogini. But as I know Dzogchen does not require it and it is possible to gain enlightenment during one's own life even in non-human body made of elements (or special pure land body).

According to teachings Dzogchen was practiced even in god realms, where there were not human bodies, before Garab Dorje was reborn to teach humans. This is one among other unique features of Dzogchen.

Can you write more about it? What dzogchen tantras said about it? Is it the precious human body so very precious (and only necessary) in Dzogchen as in HYTantras?
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Re: precious human body not so precious in Dzogchen as in HYT

Postby narraboth » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:16 pm

Actually I think the saying of 'only human body can acheive Buddhahood in lifetime' is quite a Sarma saying?
If you trace back the history of Mahayoga, you will read stories like '100000 nagas...' '100000 dieties achieve Buddhahood'.

In Sarma HYT, because you will need the third empowerment path as the way to the fourth, so ones without the ability to or don't want to do the third is not possible to achieve buddhahood in life time. (that's how Gelugpa explain why great Dzongkapa didn't achieve Buddhahood before his death)
I am quite sure you don't need that in Dzogchen. But I am wondering do we need human body in Mahayoga? I don't know, probably those nagas and dieties recieved Dzogchen teaching too.
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Re: precious human body not so precious in Dzogchen as in HYT

Postby Mariusz » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:43 pm

Agree, Panchen Sonam Dragpa book: “Overview of Buddhist Tantra” said: before receiving fourth (word) initiation for practice of the union, it is necessary to receive (third) wisdom initiation for the practice of clear light when 4 joys.
In initiation according to (Nyingthik) Innermost Essence of Dzogchen the (third) wisdom (sherbab jeshe) initiation is also for 4 joys but can not be necessary for fourth (word) initiation which has the complete methods of trekcho and thogal?


narraboth wrote:Actually I think the saying of 'only human body can acheive Buddhahood in lifetime' is quite a Sarma saying?
If you trace back the history of Mahayoga, you will read stories like '100000 nagas...' '100000 dieties achieve Buddhahood'.

In Sarma HYT, because you will need the third empowerment path as the way to the fourth, so ones without the ability to or don't want to do the third is not possible to achieve buddhahood in life time. (that's how Gelugpa explain why great Dzongkapa didn't achieve Buddhahood before his death)
I am quite sure you don't need that in Dzogchen. But I am wondering do we need human body in Mahayoga? I don't know, probably those nagas and dieties recieved Dzogchen teaching too.
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Re: precious human body not so precious in Dzogchen as in HYT

Postby narraboth » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:37 pm

Mariusz wrote:Agree, Panchen Sonam Dragpa book: “Overview of Buddhist Tantra” said: before receiving fourth (word) initiation for practice of the union, it is necessary to receive (third) wisdom initiation for the practice of clear light when 4 joys.
In initiation according to (Nyingthik) Innermost Essence of Dzogchen the (third) wisdom (sherbab jeshe) initiation is also for 4 joys but can not be necessary for fourth (word) initiation which has the complete methods of trekcho and thogal?


narraboth wrote:Actually I think the saying of 'only human body can acheive Buddhahood in lifetime' is quite a Sarma saying?
If you trace back the history of Mahayoga, you will read stories like '100000 nagas...' '100000 dieties achieve Buddhahood'.

In Sarma HYT, because you will need the third empowerment path as the way to the fourth, so ones without the ability to or don't want to do the third is not possible to achieve buddhahood in life time. (that's how Gelugpa explain why great Dzongkapa didn't achieve Buddhahood before his death)
I am quite sure you don't need that in Dzogchen. But I am wondering do we need human body in Mahayoga? I don't know, probably those nagas and dieties recieved Dzogchen teaching too.


I don't know, I think in Dzogchen empowerment the meaning of four empowerments is a bit different. Probably we shouldn't keep discussing this here, it supposed to be secret.
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Re: precious human body not so precious in Dzogchen as in HYT

Postby Mariusz » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:16 am

narraboth wrote:I don't know, I think in Dzogchen empowerment the meaning of four empowerments is a bit different. Probably we shouldn't keep discussing this here, it supposed to be secret.


I see, so let's stop here and back to common non-secret theory.

Is it possible to realize Dzogchen in these non-human realms or in non-human body because Mind Direct Transmission (Tib. Gyalwa Gong Gyü) lineage or Sign Transmission of the Vidyadharas (Tib. Rigdzin Da Gyü) lineage can be somehow "delivered" there? Is it possible to have Oral Transmission (Tib. Gangzak Nyen Gyü) there also?

I think it is important and beneficial to know it because one can choose what to practice (Dzogchen or Highest Yoga Tantras). It is said the precious human body is very rare to obtain once more and if Dzogchen is possible also in non-human bodies one can invest for one's own safer future too :tongue:
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Re: precious human body not so precious in Dzogchen as in HYT

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:34 am

Hello dear Dzogchen readers, :)

When i understood it well we have the Sugatha garbha and the Tathagatha garbha.

All sentient beings have the Sugatha garbha, humans inside the heart residing, and the Buddhas encompass the sentient beings with the Tathagata garbha. They do not encompass with their compassion matter like stones etc.
So in Bon there are Buddhas going to that lower and higher realms to help there.

All sentient beings have so the potential to get enlightened when there would be a case of good karma or karmic body to do so, or an event where a Buddha appears. This all is based on a certain + karma.
When does it happen? Yes that would be for all sentient beings a very rare event.
It is resembled like the ocean with a ring on the surface where a dolphin puts his head through.

In all the realms of Samsara is the human realm the most precious one and to get Dzogchen teachings and be able to practice them is very very very rare. Or even to be born when the general Buddhist teachings are given is very rare.

So look at your here and now situation as to be born as a lucky human with good health, intellect, etc.
That is more important than asking oneself about other sentient beings who are mostly not so lucky in practising Dharma.

Well in case you did have practiced Tantra, then one can be liberated to be born in the Sambhogakaya field of a certain Buddha, during your Bardo State if you recognise your visualised form or that you are the one who is seeing that form. This Buddha is the Sambhogakya form you did practice. One is leading to that pure fiels or is born there spontaneous, what depends upon the vows of that specific Buddha.
Sangye Menla has 12 vows....

Without having practiced during live you will be passing/go according your karma to one of the 6 realms.
Mostly coming from a very deep uncounciouss state one is at once born in a certain body :shock:

We have many sentient beings like demons, nagas etc. if they can be liberated by practice?
Most cannot because they are too much involved in a different way of vision or karma.
In Bon and somewhere else demons are catched and become then dharmapalas so that they can collect positive karma and after a long time they are liberated.

The collective karma of experience:
Water is seen by the pretas as puss
Water is seen by animals as only someting to drink
Water is seen by the Gods as nectar
Water is seen by the hell beings as fire
Water is seen by humans as a precious liquid to drink, clean and mix and more like that

So how do we help the pretas for instance / by the ritual of the Chu tor.
Here we give them blessed water so that they have no hunger for a while. Then they are blessed so that they can experience by the blessed water the mantra etc. So they get glimpses of the teachings.

Every realm can be influenced by the humans and not only by the Buddhas.......
It is the state of mind who can do so. Do the nagas and others this also for us humans ?
I guess/assume that it are only the Buddhas and humans who are able to help
But am very happy when more sentient beings could be able to help others in the 6 realms.

The gods of the 33 realms or the light Gods are teached by the Buddhas before they go to the earth or when they are on earth they teach there. i guess here they are one of the highest ranked Gods and even they are teached by the innumerable Buddhas.

So ALL the Buddhas as well the Buddha Shakyamuni as well the Bon Buddhas like Buddha Tonpa Shenrab do teach there.There are no exclusive rights here or sole agent rights etc.

Besides that all has the human the most precious body to practice the dharma.

Better to look at our human body here and now and do practice then asking oneself what and why other sentient beings cannot or can get Dharma teachings. :?

Best wishes with your practice
Kalden Yungdrung
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: precious human body not so precious in Dzogchen as in HYT

Postby narraboth » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:38 pm

Mariusz wrote:Is it possible to realize Dzogchen in these non-human realms or in non-human body because Mind Direct Transmission (Tib. Gyalwa Gong Gyü) lineage or Sign Transmission of the Vidyadharas (Tib. Rigdzin Da Gyü) lineage can be somehow "delivered" there? Is it possible to have Oral Transmission (Tib. Gangzak Nyen Gyü) there also?

I think it is important and beneficial to know it because one can choose what to practice (Dzogchen or Highest Yoga Tantras). It is said the precious human body is very rare to obtain once more and if Dzogchen is possible also in non-human bodies one can invest for one's own safer future too :tongue:


I think those nagas, daka/dakini and deva/devi who attain enlightenment through rig sum gongpo or maha siddha's teaching are in category of gangzak byen gyu too. Those teachers spoke, and they listened.

For knowing the nature of mind, I don't think other kinds of beings would have huge problem. The problem is the path people choose to relise the nature of mind. Most of HYT use a method that require human body, and other methods are not mentioned in those tantra, therefore the conclusion would be you got to have a human body.

The point here shouldn't be if one should choose HYT just because he happens to have a human body. It should be that you have a human body, so you have two choices, and you now check carefully which one is better for you. We got to know that the difference in sense of human body or not, is just about if you can achieve buddhahood before you die. Only when considering the possiblity of attaining Buddhahood within one life, then it's meaningful. How many people attained full Buddhahood in life time in history? Not many.

Also, people got to think the difficulty of paths. Even if you got a human body, doesn't mean that you can pratice those methods which especially designed for human body. There are very high requirements.

I think for common people like me, who don't have time to do years of retreats and to leave families and practice alone, human body is precious mainly because the reasons described in Sutrayana teaching. But I am happy still that I have the chance to practice some of HYT methods, just probably I couldn't grasp the chance as well as great masters.
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Re: precious human body not so precious in Dzogchen as in HYT

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:28 pm

narraboth wrote:I think for common people like me, who don't have time to do years of retreats and to leave families and practice alone, human body is precious mainly because the reasons described in Sutrayana teaching. But I am happy still that I have the chance to practice some of HYT methods, just probably I couldn't grasp the chance as well as great masters.


I guess HYT to be fully fruitful one needs relatively young body with straight channels and practise it hard. I read a Dzogchen story when a old men age 100+ was introdeced by Vimalamitra and gained full accomplishment next moment, but maybe this kind of the most successful transmission is also possible with the help of the Essence Mahamudra?

You should also remember one has supreme samayas because of HYT initiation and it only is far more superior than sutra if not violated.
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