Vajrasattva purification practice

[Johnny Dangerous]

Heard a bit about this, read up on it.. I notice that for some this seems to be a foundational practice, but I don't think my center does this.

Is this something which requires initiation normally?

[Yudron]

Heard a bit about this, read up on it.. I notice that for some this seems to be a foundational practice, but I don't think my center does this.

Is this something which requires initiation normally?

Huh. I thought every lineage did this. Again, I am continually learning things here I didnt have a clue about. Vajrasattva practice is in most "ngondro", or foundational practices, liturgies. As a part of these ngondros. such as the Longchen Nyingthig, or the Karma Kagyu ngondro--which are emphasized in the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages--one accumulates 111,000 repetitions of the 100 syllable mantra of Vajrasattva. I thought this was part of the Gelug and Sakya equivalents, is it not?

Anyway, it depends on the lineage whether empowerment is required or whether reading transmission will suffice.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Heard a bit about this, read up on it.. I notice that for some this seems to be a foundational practice, but I don't think my center does this.

Is this something which requires initiation normally?

Huh. I thought every lineage did this. Again, I am continually learning things here I didnt have a clue about. Vajrasattva practice is in most "ngondro", or foundational practices, liturgies. As a part of these ngondros. such as the Longchen Nyingthig, or the Karma Kagyu ngondro--which are emphasized in the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages--one accumulates 111,000 repetitions of the 100 syllable mantra of Vajrasattva. I thought this was part of the Gelug and Sakya equivalents, is it not?

Anyway, it depends on the lineage whether empowerment is required or whether reading transmission will suffice.

I get the impression that the center I go to might be somewhat non-traditional in how they handle foundational practice, though they are of course completely legit Sakya dudes I have no idea what is 'standard", the services at the center are Shamatha/Vipayshana and Chenrezig/Tara practice, though due to the head guys being out of town I have never gotten any sort of one on one time with them for questions, I plan on getting some of that once they're available.

The reason I ask is that when I look at places like Berzin's site they seem to indicate this is a pretty open practice, but it also looks like something that maybe you'd want...teacher advice on it before entertaining the prospect of?

[Yudron]

Well, I just googled "Sakya" and "ngondro" and came up with many references to the Sakyas having Vajrasattva practice in their ngondro. For sure you are going to want the reading transmission, and you can ask the lama if he or she thinks this is a good practice for you at this time.

Heard a bit about this, read up on it.. I notice that for some this seems to be a foundational practice, but I don't think my center does this.

Is this something which requires initiation normally?

Huh. I thought every lineage did this. Again, I am continually learning things here I didnt have a clue about. Vajrasattva practice is in most "ngondro", or foundational practices, liturgies. As a part of these ngondros. such as the Longchen Nyingthig, or the Karma Kagyu ngondro--which are emphasized in the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages--one accumulates 111,000 repetitions of the 100 syllable mantra of Vajrasattva. I thought this was part of the Gelug and Sakya equivalents, is it not?

Anyway, it depends on the lineage whether empowerment is required or whether reading transmission will suffice.

I get the impression that the center I go to might be somewhat non-traditional in how they handle foundational practice, though they are of course completely legit Sakya dudes

The reason I ask is that when I look at places like Berzin's site they seem to indicate this is a pretty open practice, but it also looks like something that maybe you'd want...teacher advice on it before entertaining the prospect of?

[Johnny Dangerous]

Sounds like I really need the one on one time to suss this stuff out, thanks.

[Konchog1]

Is this something which requires initiation normally?

Not that I believe.

[Sherlock]

Is this something which requires initiation normally?

Not that I believe.

I think you need at least the lung (reading transmission).

[gregkavarnos]

I think you need at least the lung (reading transmission).

In the Kagyu lineage you defintiely need the lung for the mantra and (if you are going to do it) the practice text. An explanation (tri) won't go astray either, though you can just rely on the explanation in Jamgon Kongtruls Torch of Certainty. An empowerment/initiation (wang) takes the practice to another level.

Now, it may be a good idea to ask your lama about this practice because it is normally a personal and not a group practice, so that may be the reason why it is not practiced publicly (ie as a group practice) in the centre.

[michaelb]

I imagine some kind of empowerment should be given before doing Vajrasattva as the practice is for purifying samaya and if you've had no empowerment there's no samaya to purify. that said, you can find out more, including a practice that apparently doesn't require empowerment here:
http://prayer4peace.net

[Yudron]

I imagine some kind of empowerment should be given before doing Vajrasattva as the practice is for purifying samaya and if you've had no empowerment there's no samaya to purify. that said, you can find out more, including a practice that apparently doesn't require empowerment here:
http://prayer4peace.net

It purifies more than samaya. Remember sickness, contamination, and negative karma of all kinds are purified.

[pael]

How do you purify samaya, if you have done root downfall months ago?
I have taken only Amitayus empowerment from konchog chidu.

[Sonny]

Gelug: "The general rule of thumb is that without empowerment one can not absorb thedeity (any deity) into the heart nor arise as the deity oneself. Without empowerment one must keep the deity on the crown of the head or in front of oneself. If the practice says to "absorb the deity into the heart" and one does not have the empowerment then you visualize the deity melting into light and the light only absorbs into the heart. "

Sravasti Abbey has done a few 3 month Vajrasattva retreats, which includes long distance practitioners joining in.

Teachings and meditations: http://www.thubtenchodron.org/Retreat/w ... _2006.html

http://www.sravastiabbey.org/about/hhdlendorsement.html

[gregkavarnos]

How do you purify samaya, if you have done root downfall months ago?
I have taken only Amitayus empowerment from konchog chidu.

Mahayana aspiration: May this practice be a source for the purification of the karmic inpurities and samaya breakages of ALL sentient beings. Also, have you ever considered that the reason you are in samsara is due to samaya breakages in past lives?

[heart]

How do you purify samaya, if you have done root downfall months ago?
I have taken only Amitayus empowerment from konchog chidu.

Do this http://prayer4peace.net a lot.

/magnus

[conebeckham]

In Sakya, ngondro is a bit different. Kagyupas and Nyingmapas are used to doing ngondro, including Vajrasattva, as a "main practice" prior to deity yoga, etc. Completing the 400,000 accumulations of prostrations, refuge, Vajrasattva, Mandala, and Guru Yoga is often a prerequisite for the so-called "Advanced practices" in Kagyu and Nyingma lineages.

In the Sakya lineage, the ngondro practices come AFTER (or together with) the deity yoga practice, in Lamdre and also in VY practice. Sakya most definitely have Vajrasattva practice, but it's usually a part of other deity sadhanas--Hevajra and Vajrayogini, mainly. However, some Sakyapas may practice Vajrasattva on it's own, as well, possibly from various Terma traditions.

Whether for ngondro or as a main, yidam practice, the empowerment is important, in Kagyu, Geluk, and Nyingma. I can't say for the Sakyas. It is possible, and beneficial to a degree, to recite the mantra and liturgy, I'm sure, but every Kagyu and Nyingma lama I've known indicates that, for counting the accumulations, the empowerment is a prerequisite. I'm sure this is also the case, for purposes of a "yidam retreat" when one practices in a group setting, as the Gelukpas sometimes do with Heruka Vajrasattva, and as the Nyingmapas do, for example, with Minling Dorsem, Chogling DorSem, Red Vajrasattva, or Dudjom DorSem Lama Chopa.

[pael]

If I fully transgress tantric vows, can that be purified? How?
What, if I die middle of repenting? I have heard to purify full transgression it is needed 100000 repetion of vajrasatta mantra? Example: when I have done 5000 and if I die then, do I purify samaya? Do I still go to vajra hell?

[gregkavarnos]

If I fully transgress tantric vows, can that be purified? How?
What, if I die middle of repenting? I have heard to purify full transgression it is needed 100000 repetion of vajrasatta mantra? Example: when I have done 5000 and if I die then, do I purify samaya? Do I still go to vajra hell?

Just do it and don't worry about it because, more than likely, we'll all be in vajra hell together, so at least you will have good company!

But seriously, another very good practice is the 35 Confession Buddhas. It s a Sutra practice so it doesn't need all the tantric bells and frills in order to practice AND even clears up messes as serious as killing your guru, especially when you apply the four opponent powers:

A complete purification practice consists of four opponent powers:

1. The power of regret for having done the negative action.

2. The power of reliance: taking refuge, which restores our relationship with holy objects, and generating the altruistic intention, which restores our relationship with other sentient beings.

3. The power of the remedial action, e.g. prostration, offering, reciting the names of the Buddha, reading or contemplating the Dharma, etc.

4. The power of the promise not to repeat the action.

These four opponent powers are found in "The Bodhisattva's Confession of Ethical Downfalls*," the Vajrasattva meditation, and other practices.

*35 Confession Buddhas practice.

http://www.thubtenchodron.org/PrayersAn ... tices.html

[Johnny Dangerous]

In the Sakya lineage, the ngondro practices come AFTER (or together with) the deity yoga practice, in Lamdre and also in VY practice. Sakya most definitely have Vajrasattva practice, but it's usually a part of other deity sadhanas--Hevajra and Vajrayogini, mainly. However, some Sakyapas may practice Vajrasattva on it's own, as well, possibly from various Terma traditions.

Thank you Cone, this explains alot.

[heart]

If I fully transgress tantric vows, can that be purified? How?
What, if I die middle of repenting? I have heard to purify full transgression it is needed 100000 repetion of vajrasatta mantra? Example: when I have done 5000 and if I die then, do I purify samaya? Do I still go to vajra hell?

100.000 is just a number,it isn't important, do it from your heart as much as you possibly can. Even for the rest of your life. Very fantastic practice, I promise you will not regret doing it.

/magnus

[gregkavarnos]

I am finding it a very painfully difficult practice, I agree that it is fantastic though.