Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:59 am

Yes such speculation hinders discussion of the issues and creates contention.
I am really starting to feel that until new information becomes available meaningful discussion is not possible on this thread.
We really seem to be going around in circles at this point which doesn't benefit anyone.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Ven. Charama Bhavika » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:37 am

Hello,

I just wanted to let everyone know that our new web site has launched! I appreciate your patience.

The document transferring Ven. Dr. Thich Thien-An's educational institution from Ven. Chitta Dharma and Ven. Karuna Dharma to Five Mountain Zen Order can be found here: http://www.buddhadharmauniversity.org/history.html.

I hope that information suffices. If not, there's nothing more I can say or do.

Many Bows,

Charama
"If you want to attain your true nature, you must have Great Faith, Great Courage, and Great Question. It is like a three-legged stool...With these supporting your practice, you can attain your true self. You can attain universal substance, and attain your correct way, and truth, and make your life correct. Then you can help all sentient beings get out of suffering. That is our job."

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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby dearreader » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:22 pm

Ven. Charama Bhavika wrote:Hello,
The document transferring Ven. Dr. Thich Thien-An's educational institution from Ven. Chitta Dharma and Ven. Karuna Dharma to Five Mountain Zen Order can be found here: http://www.buddhadharmauniversity.org/history.html.


Congratulations on the new website. Could a native english speaker please tell me if "appointment" is the same as "transfer" ? The certificate reads that Venerable Dr. Wanji Dharma was appointed as Dean. Is this the same as transferring control?

Gratsi
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Heaven-and-earth itself is the sutra book.
All phenomena are encompassed in even a single point therein,
And the six sense objects are all included within its covers."
-Kukai, translated in Kukai on the Philosophy of Language by Takagi and Dreitlein
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Ven. Charama Bhavika » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:48 pm

dearreader wrote:
Congratulations on the new website. Could a native english speaker please tell me if "appointment" is the same as "transfer" ? The certificate reads that Venerable Dr. Wanji Dharma was appointed as Dean. Is this the same as transferring control?

Gratsi


Thank you for your comment, Dearreader.

The answer to your question is Yes.

Two things happened between Ven. Dr. Chitta Dharma and Ven. Wanji Dharma: (1) Ven. Wanji Dharma was appointed the Provost and Dean of the school, and (2) responsibility for the school was transferred to Ven. Wanji Dharma of the Five Mountain Zen Order.

The paragraph at the bottom of the document says this:

"...and in doing so transfer my work in continuance of the mission and vision of Ven. Dr. Thich Thien-an to him for furtherance."

The "to him" in that sentence refers to Ven. Wanji Dharma.

So, Ven. Dr. Chitta Dharma stepped down as Provost and Dean, appointed Ven. Wanji Dharma as Provost and Dean, and then charged Ven. Wanji Dharma with continuing the school -- which Ven. Wanji Dharma, Ven. Wonji Dharma (Paul Lynch), and others are now doing...with all due earnestness, diligence, compassion, and respect for all who came before us.

Many Bows,
Charama
"If you want to attain your true nature, you must have Great Faith, Great Courage, and Great Question. It is like a three-legged stool...With these supporting your practice, you can attain your true self. You can attain universal substance, and attain your correct way, and truth, and make your life correct. Then you can help all sentient beings get out of suffering. That is our job."

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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby SonofRage » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:45 pm

It seems that one of the main issues, that of Paul Lynch's transmission, remains unanswered. It still seems to me that this is a simple matter that could be put to rest with a simple answer.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby dearreader » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:13 am

Ven. Charama Bhavika wrote:
The answer to your question is Yes.

Two things happened between Ven. Dr. Chitta Dharma and Ven. Wanji Dharma: (1) Ven. Wanji Dharma was appointed the Provost and Dean of the school, and (2) responsibility for the school was transferred to Ven. Wanji Dharma of the Five Mountain Zen Order.

The paragraph at the bottom of the document says this:

"...and in doing so transfer my work in continuance of the mission and vision of Ven. Dr. Thich Thien-an to him for furtherance."

The "to him" in that sentence refers to Ven. Wanji Dharma.

So, Ven. Dr. Chitta Dharma stepped down as Provost and Dean, appointed Ven. Wanji Dharma as Provost and Dean, and then charged Ven. Wanji Dharma with continuing the school -- which Ven. Wanji Dharma, Ven. Wonji Dharma (Paul Lynch), and others are now doing...with all due earnestness, diligence, compassion, and respect for all who came before us.

Many Bows,
Charama



Dear Charama,

Thanks for the clarification. I am a little surprised to learn they have the same meaning. I don't know how things work in California but I would have assumed that ownership of the school would be separate from "responsibility." I have responsibilities at my place of employment but I don't own the company. Why was Wanji given control of the entire institute and not Paul Lynch?

thank you again for your patience.
"Inscribed with the brush of Mt. Sumeru and the ink of the seas,
Heaven-and-earth itself is the sutra book.
All phenomena are encompassed in even a single point therein,
And the six sense objects are all included within its covers."
-Kukai, translated in Kukai on the Philosophy of Language by Takagi and Dreitlein
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Jikan » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:21 am

Thanks for the details! I had a follow-up to dearreader's question. It's not clear to my poor head who has entrusted leadership of the program to Wanji. Did Five Mountain come into control or possession (not sure how to word this properly) of the institution before or after Wanji was made the leader?

thanks
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Ven. Charama Bhavika » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:16 am

dearreader wrote:
Ven. Charama Bhavika wrote:
Dear Charama,

Thanks for the clarification. I am a little surprised to learn they have the same meaning. I don't know how things work in California but I would have assumed that ownership of the school would be separate from "responsibility." I have responsibilities at my place of employment but I don't own the company. Why was Wanji given control of the entire institute and not Paul Lynch?

thank you again for your patience.



Dearreader,

I don't know how to respond to the first part of what you wrote. I don't know how California works. I try not to assume anything.

You asked: "Why was Wanji given control of the entire institute and not Paul Lynch?"

If I recall correctly, Ven. Wanji got to know Ven. Chitta Dharma and Ven. Karuna Dharma because of Ven. Thich Thien-An's book Zen Philosophy Zen Practice. Ven. Wanji approached them about the book. Probably to obtain copies, and to express its profound affect on him. From that, I think they found much common ground, and mutual respect. He told them about Five Mountain Zen Order. They told him about Buddhist Studies Institute - Los Angeles. The rest is history. Ven. Wanji is a wonderful guy. Very friendly. Very warm. And very knowledgeable about the Dharma. So I think there was just a lot of commonality between them. They thought so highly of him that they entrusted him with carrying on Ven. Thich Thien-An's institution. That says a lot about Ven. Wanji.

So Ven Wonji (Paul Lynch) wasn't the one who initially struck up the friendship with them. Ven. Wanji was.

Many Bows,

Charama
"If you want to attain your true nature, you must have Great Faith, Great Courage, and Great Question. It is like a three-legged stool...With these supporting your practice, you can attain your true self. You can attain universal substance, and attain your correct way, and truth, and make your life correct. Then you can help all sentient beings get out of suffering. That is our job."

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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Ven. Charama Bhavika » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:36 am

Jikan wrote:Thanks for the details! I had a follow-up to dearreader's question. It's not clear to my poor head who has entrusted leadership of the program to Wanji. Did Five Mountain come into control or possession (not sure how to word this properly) of the institution before or after Wanji was made the leader?

thanks



Dear Jikan,

You wrote, "...who has entrusted leadership of the program to Wanji."

If I understand you correctly, I believe the answer is Ven. Dr. Chitta Dharma and Ven. Dr. Karuna Dharma. It is their signatures at the bottom of the document on our web site.

You asked, "Did Five Mountain come into control or possession (not sure how to word this properly) of the institution before or after Wanji was made the leader?"

After. We didn't have the authority to do anything until Ven. Chitta Dharma and Ven. Karuna Dharma transferred their authority to us.

Remember, Ven. Wanji is the Abbot of Five Mountain Zen Order. So when he was entrusted with carrying on Ven. Dr. Thich Thien-An's mission, that responsibility fell on all of us at Five Mountain Zen Order as well. (As I've mentioned many times, that's an honor we take very seriously.)

When Ven. Dr. Chitta Dharma and Ven. Dr. Karuna Dharma transferred Buddhist Studies Institute - Los Angeles to us, they also granted Ven. Wanji and Ven. Wonji each a Doctorate in Buddhist Psychology. So Ven. Wanji is Ven. Dr. Wanji Dharma. Ven. Wonji is Ven. Dr. Wonji Dharma.

Ven. Dr. Wonji Dharma (Paul Lynch) is President of what is now called Buddha Dharma University. Ven. Dr. Wanji Dharma is Provost and Dean of Students. I am an Associate Professor of Buddhist Studies, and a member of the Board of Directors.

I hope I understood your questions correctly. If not, please forgive me.

Many Bows,

Charama
"If you want to attain your true nature, you must have Great Faith, Great Courage, and Great Question. It is like a three-legged stool...With these supporting your practice, you can attain your true self. You can attain universal substance, and attain your correct way, and truth, and make your life correct. Then you can help all sentient beings get out of suffering. That is our job."

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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Ven. Charama Bhavika » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:43 am

SonofRage wrote:It seems that one of the main issues, that of Paul Lynch's transmission, remains unanswered. It still seems to me that this is a simple matter that could be put to rest with a simple answer.


Dear SonofRage,

As I mentioned a few weeks ago, that answer is forthcoming.

I also mentioned that I've discussed this matter with Ven. Wonji Lynch and I understand why he hasn't posted anything about it yet. There is an answer. But it is not a "simple answer," nor is this a "simple matter."

I don't know when Ven. Wonji will post anything to his Zen Mirror site. So I thank you in advance for your patience.

Many Bows,

Charama
"If you want to attain your true nature, you must have Great Faith, Great Courage, and Great Question. It is like a three-legged stool...With these supporting your practice, you can attain your true self. You can attain universal substance, and attain your correct way, and truth, and make your life correct. Then you can help all sentient beings get out of suffering. That is our job."

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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby jisahn108 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:18 am

Could you explain who gave him the name "Wonji Dharma"? Why does it conflate different languages? What happened to "Yuánzhì", that he used for about two years, along with the title "chanshi"? Can you explain why he used that name and title, and who gave them to him, and why he stopped? And what happened to the Korean title and names before those? And his now defunct use of the titles Reverend and Sensei, all of this in the last 4 years? Can you explain any of this? And yeah, still waiting for that statement about how Lynch has transmission from a teacher who issued a public statement saying he never gave it...
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby purple rose » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:12 pm

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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby purple rose » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:51 pm

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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby deweyboy » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:23 pm

jisahn Mujin, why don't you stop raising your blood pressure and contact the guy who you say wrote the letter. If you do, then we can take you seriously. otherwise your posts are just verbal masterbation.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Yudron » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:10 am

deweyboy wrote:jisahn Mujin, why don't you stop raising your blood pressure and contact the guy who you say wrote the letter. If you do, then we can take you seriously. otherwise your posts are just verbal masterbation.


The guy who wrote the letter is dead, as I understand it.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Jikan » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:34 am

deweyboy wrote:jisahn Mujin, why don't you stop raising your blood pressure and contact the guy who you say wrote the letter. If you do, then we can take you seriously. otherwise your posts are just verbal masterbation.


is this the item you're referring to?

Dear Students of the Golden Wind Zen Group and the Public at Large:

It is with a great deal of sadness and wistfulness that I write this letter is to inform you that Paul Lynch was permanently suspended on July 13, 2008 as a Ji Do Poep Sa Nim in the Golden Wind Zen Teaching Order. I originally asked Paul to take a leave of absence as a teacher during which time he could begin to practice regularly once again and make an effort to deal with his severe health problems and personal issues. When informed of this leave-of-absence from teaching, Paul decided to walk away from the sangha entirely.

A Ji Do Poep Sa is permitted to teach only under the direct supervision of their supervising Zen Master according to the Korean/American Zen tradition.

Any teaching done by Paul (under the rubric of a “Before Thinking” organization or in any other forum) is, therefore, presented without the consent or approval of Zen Master Ji Bong. Consequently, Zen Master Ji Bong accepts no responsibility for any of Paul Lynch’s words or actions currently or at any time in the future. Paul Lynch is not in any respect to be considered the Dharma heir of either Zen Master Seung Sahn or Zen Master Ji Bong.

If a student -JDPS is unwilling to follow his/her teacher, that student gives up all rights to any claims of lineage. One has authentic lineage or one has nothing – that is the majesty of the Zen Tradition.

Ironically, this experience has become a good teaching experience for all of us. We must watch our steps in each moment – remember there is always a banana peel close by.

Zen Master Ji Bong (August 17, 2008)


quoted from:

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=7613#p90660

It seems there's no need to contact Ji Bong about it, because his comments seem to need no clarification: Lynch is not my student because he us "unwilling to follow his teacher." And hence, he has given up "all rights to any claims of lineage." This is what jisahn among others have been asking about, again and again. If the authority to teach Lynch claims comes not from Ji Bong, then from where? The burden of evidence for Lynch's claim is not on Ji Bong, but on Lynch. This is why it makes sense to expect Lynch to explain this and not Ji Bong.

This seems to be a substantive question, not a masturbatory one, as deweyboy has suggested.

Finally, to the best of my knowledge, Ji Bong is alive and well. I hope he lives long and prospers.

:cheers:
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Yudron » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:59 am

Jikan wrote:
deweyboy wrote:jisahn Mujin, why don't you stop raising your blood pressure and contact the guy who you say wrote the letter. If you do, then we can take you seriously. otherwise your posts are just verbal masterbation.


is this the item you're referring to?

Dear Students of the Golden Wind Zen Group and the Public at Large:

It is with a great deal of sadness and wistfulness that I write this letter is to inform you that Paul Lynch was permanently suspended on July 13, 2008 as a Ji Do Poep Sa Nim in the Golden Wind Zen Teaching Order. I originally asked Paul to take a leave of absence as a teacher during which time he could begin to practice regularly once again and make an effort to deal with his severe health problems and personal issues. When informed of this leave-of-absence from teaching, Paul decided to walk away from the sangha entirely.

A Ji Do Poep Sa is permitted to teach only under the direct supervision of their supervising Zen Master according to the Korean/American Zen tradition.

Any teaching done by Paul (under the rubric of a “Before Thinking” organization or in any other forum) is, therefore, presented without the consent or approval of Zen Master Ji Bong. Consequently, Zen Master Ji Bong accepts no responsibility for any of Paul Lynch’s words or actions currently or at any time in the future. Paul Lynch is not in any respect to be considered the Dharma heir of either Zen Master Seung Sahn or Zen Master Ji Bong.

If a student -JDPS is unwilling to follow his/her teacher, that student gives up all rights to any claims of lineage. One has authentic lineage or one has nothing – that is the majesty of the Zen Tradition.

Ironically, this experience has become a good teaching experience for all of us. We must watch our steps in each moment – remember there is always a banana peel close by.

Zen Master Ji Bong (August 17, 2008)


quoted from:

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=7613#p90660

It seems there's no need to contact Ji Bong about it, because his comments seem to need no clarification: Lynch is not my student because he us "unwilling to follow his teacher." And hence, he has given up "all rights to any claims of lineage." This is what jisahn among others have been asking about, again and again. If the authority to teach Lynch claims comes not from Ji Bong, then from where? The burden of evidence for Lynch's claim is not on Ji Bong, but on Lynch. This is why it makes sense to expect Lynch to explain this and not Ji Bong.

This seems to be a substantive question, not a masturbatory one, as deweyboy has suggested.

Finally, to the best of my knowledge, Ji Bong is alive and well. I hope he lives long and prospers.

:cheers:


Sorry for my mistake, I'm glad he's alive!
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby jisahn108 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:35 pm

Asked about this letter by someone on Facebook, Paul Lynch didn't deny it (there or elsewhere at other times); he just said "there's a backstory that my loyal [read "dues-/homage-paying"] students already know, and since you aren't one I don't have to tell you. Have a nice life." Sound familiar Deweyboy? But I actually guess Paul Lynch would be able to spell "masturbation" so maybe Dewey is just the random troll he declares himself to be. Though I doubt it. Maybe he is a "master" of it, so this misspelling is intentional. Lynch after all has declared himself a master of so many things... :bow:

So, again, adding up the many pieces, one begins to smell a rat in the proverbial Zen kitchen. Rat soup. Rat steak. Rat salad. Rat-atouille. Or following Lynch's self-declared lineage-affiliations and titles in the last 4 years should we say rat-bim-bop, Kung Pao rat, rat terriyaki, and rat bahn-mi?

PS According to Adam Tebbe at Sweeping Zen, a declared "friend" of Lynch, he has written Bob Moore about the situation, and was told by Moore's senior student and Ji Do Poep Sa Nim that Mr. Moore is in poor health and finds this situation to distressing to comment further on. No denial or repudiation of the letter, clearly. In fact, something of an underscore or exclamation point to it. Tebbe also promised to publish a story "clarifying" the matter within a few weeks. That was about a year ago - nothing since. He has stopped publishing articles by Lynch and his students, who were once prominently featured there. Likewise I no longer see advertisements for Lynch's organizations, that also were ubiquitous up to his being confronted with questions regarding his support for Lynch.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:42 pm

I hope this doesn't come off as completely irrelevant or out of place (please feel free to move the post if that is th ecase) but did I see that the Five Mountain Zen Order refer to their monastics as Bhikkhus? Do they follow the vinaya?
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Jikan » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:08 pm

Khalil Bodhi wrote:I hope this doesn't come off as completely irrelevant or out of place (please feel free to move the post if that is th ecase) but did I see that the Five Mountain Zen Order refer to their monastics as Bhikkhus? Do they follow the vinaya?


This is another open question. I'm not certain if Five Mountain Zen Order ordains monks by the Vinaya, and if so, which one, or how it may have been transmitted (perhaps through Ven. Thien-An's tradition?).
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