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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:25 pm 
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In the four sects of Tibetan Buddhism who can use the "Honarary" title of Rinpoche.
:namaste:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:39 am 
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What do you mean? Rinpoche is a title usually used when referring to tulkus but that is not 100% rule. There have been some teachers that are so profound that they are called rinpoche without being recognized as tulkus.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:58 am 
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Rinpoche is a title that means "precious one". It is not reserved for tulkus. It can be applied to any teacher that shows great qualities. It is not an officially betowed title, as far as I know.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:09 am 
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:soapbox: Nowadays 'Rinpoche' been appropriated by tulkus but it ain't necessarily so, as the song goes. A considerable number of such reincarnated lamas live indolent and pampered lifestyles and get away with failings in shedra where ordinary monks do not, and are sometimes unqualified to teach or give empowerments. This is often just seen as their birthright. This is a big bone of contention behind many gompa doors. I say this from my own experience, having lived and taught in a major labrang in India for some years.

When some of these cases are set free from shedra they can often be found prowling around Asia, Europe or the USA following the gravy train poured out by students who are taken in by the title 'Rinpoche' and throw money around with little discriminating awareness.

So, just because you see the title Rinpoche it's no guarantee of authenticity, even with Tibetans, let alone Westerners. Any unknown, sincere and diligent lama is just as worthy of the title Rinpoche than any tulku, if he or she teaches pure Dharma and gives you the authentic liberating instructions. This was the case in Tibet where students often called their teacher Rinpoche as an honorific, whether a tulku or not. :namaste:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:16 am 
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Kunga wrote:
:soapbox: Nowadays 'Rinpoche' been appropriated by tulkus but it ain't necessarily so, as the song goes. A considerable number of such reincarnated lamas live indolent and pampered lifestyles and get away with failings in shedra where ordinary monks do not, and are sometimes unqualified to teach or give empowerments. This is often just seen as their birthright. This is a big bone of contention behind many gompa doors. I say this from my own experience, having lived and taught in a major labrang in India for some years.

When some of these cases are set free from shedra they can often be found prowling around Asia, Europe or the USA following the gravy train poured out by students who are taken in by the title 'Rinpoche' and throw money around with little discriminating awareness.

So, just because you see the title Rinpoche it's no guarantee of authenticity, even with Tibetans, let alone Westerners. Any unknown, sincere and diligent lama is just as worthy of the title Rinpoche than any tulku, if he or she teaches pure Dharma and gives you the authentic liberating instructions. This was the case in Tibet where students often called their teacher Rinpoche as an honorific, whether a tulku or not. :namaste:


Sounds just about right, thanks Kunga.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:51 am 
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We seem to have very good fortune, the main lamas in the San Francisco Bay area--not counting a couple of weird Chinese centers--are really really good. We have an abundance of excellent lamas--eastern and western--with blessings and good conduct.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:57 pm 
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You need to ask yourself who's Rinpoche (a Precious One) for you. IOW, your Rinpoche may not be my Rinpoche and vice versa.

Another title that is commonly misused is H.H. (His Holiness). According to traditional protocol in the West (where this title comes from, and at least as far as I was taught), H.H. should be reserved for the highest member of a religious denomination, such as the RC Pope, the Greek Orthodox Hierarch, the Dalai Lama, the Grand Mufti, etc. While I'm comfortable with each of the highest throne-holders of the major Tibetan Buddhist sects being accorded this title (such as H.H. the Karmapa, H.H. Sakya Tridzin, Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche, Chetsang Rinpoche, and the Gyalwa Druk), I think this title is abused when lesser luminaries within a sect are given it. I understand that disciples want to respect their particular Teacher with the grandest title possible. I find that only natural, but, in that case, within Tibetan Buddhism, rather than co-opting a Western title and using it incorrectly, why not use the more traditional Kyabje (Lord of Refuge) or Dorje Chang (Vajradhara)? These traditional titles get the job done without, IMO, using a Western title with a defined protocol erroneously.

Just my two cents. Of no particular importance.

:namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:29 am 
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pemachophel wrote:
You need to ask yourself who's Rinpoche (a Precious One) for you. IOW, your Rinpoche may not be my Rinpoche and vice versa.





This tells me it depends on own mind. We need that kind of looking up in order to 'listen'. Then what is dividing in Honorary and others can be discovered.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:42 am 
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Quote:
In the four sects of Tibetan Buddhism who can use the "Honarary" title of Rinpoche.
Don't forget Jonang...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:33 pm 
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It appears to me that anyone can use the title of "Rinpoche".

No education, no training, no 3 year retreat is necessary.

No official permission is need nor required prior to using this title.

It seems that anyone can call themselves shaman, yogi and now Rinpoche.

How does a new student of Tibetan Buddhism find out that there is a difference between HAROLD RINPOCHE AND DUDJOM RINPOCHE.

All I need is a fancy website and the title RINPOCHE and I'm all sent to fleece the public.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Harold,

Yup, that's Tibetan Buddhism. Authentic Lamas are very reluctant to criticize others openly. (Behind closed doors, that's another story entirely.) There is no central authority which checks and enforces the credentials of Lamas. This is just part of the territory. That's why caveat emptor (i.e., let the buyer beware) is so important in the world of Tibetan Buddhism.

Good luck and best wishes, and don't take any wooden nickels. On the other hand, I have a really great bridge in Brooklyn that I could sell you at a very good price.

:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:36 pm 
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hello, yes I know, that there is no real, kind of central authority to exert quality control.
If beings are let loose as Kunga described in his post. ( dont know how id paste it in here) it will destroy our tradition , or so Ithink. I dont think that its inconceivable that a local teacher can certainly say that some individual does not have approval for teaching others.

This is all very , hypocritical, I think, you see the rhetoric thats stated far and wide is that the tradition is one of a realization lineage , and that its passed on and that a teacher gives permission for someone to teach, etc
In my opinion, the corollary of this is that western people who have been fully trained, in three year retreats and in Shedras , who are humble , and dont do much formal teaching should start to do that more and more, take more responsibility for the Dharma , so that its taught well, collaborate with other like minded people .

tsewang


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:42 pm 
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You know, when I first discovered Tibetan Buddhism, I just thought Rinpoche was a last name and was surprised so many teachers had the same one haha.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:54 pm 
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So many people are now walking around with the title "Shaman".

Soon many people will be walking around with the title "Rinpoche".

Such sad times we live in that no one will stand up for the Dharma and the true Dharma teachers.

If everyone can now use the title "Rinpoche" what will its value be?

Even the Tibetans are at it now.

Why be a LAMA when you can be a LAMCHEN, a GREAT LAMA.

Before we had KHENPO'S and now we have KHENCHEN'S, GREAT KHENPOS.

They teach NO EGO but can they live it?

Beware wolves in red robes with TITLES.

You may not get what you paid for.

What you get instead may taste very very bad.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:47 am 
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I think you are starting to shift into paranoia, you see a lot of the teachers that carry the titles of Khenchen and Lamchen, have actually earnt those titles through offical scholarly and practical effort. Many Rinpoche do actually deserve the title of "precious ones". Don't throw the baby out wih the bath water.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:57 am 
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Yes. For instance, one of my own root lamas, Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche, came to be referred, as I've just mentioned, with the title khenchen. Yet whenever he would sign his name on something, he always simply wrote Khenpo Palden Sherab. No -chen, no rinpoche, just his academic title and his name. It was his greatness in realization, scholarship, teaching, and conduct--recognized by inconceivable masters like HH Dudjom Rinpoche and Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche and many others, and of course by his many students--that caused him to come to be referred to with such grand language. But he himself was beyond humble. So Greg is right--we cannot be too quick to pass judgment over genuine masters because grand titles have been attached to them just because some charlatans have co-opted those same titles.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:45 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
I think you are starting to shift into paranoia, you see a lot of the teachers that carry the titles of Khenchen and Lamchen, have actually earnt those titles through offical scholarly and practical effort. Many Rinpoche do actually deserve the title of "precious ones". Don't throw the baby out wih the bath water.
:namaste:


If I am paranoia then Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo is also paranoia.

Jetsunma Tenzin Palma received her title from the 12th Gyalwang Drukpa.

In the documentary called "Refuge" released over a decade ago she speaks about the use of these titles.

It was from her teaching on this subject that I learned about these titles.

Jetsunma belittles and derides those who are now no longer happy being Lamas. They now call themselves Lamchen's and those who are Khenpo and who now calling themselves Khenchens.

Could I get some history on the titles of Lamchen and Khenchen.

Who officially gives out these titles and can any Lama just start call themselves LAMCHEN.

If anyone can now call themselves RINPOCHE without any formally process is the next step a flood of Lama's calling themselves LAMCHEN.

I don't remember any of my professors going around using the title GREAT PROFESSOR.

If you are a Khenpo then you should stop your students from calling you Khenchen, unless...?

Yours truly HAROLD RINPOCHE


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:33 pm 
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What you don't seem to understand is that the title Rinpche can also be bestowed by students, on their teacher, when they consider them precious. It is not necessarily a title bestowed by an authority.

As for the Khenchen and Lamchen titles, maybe there is a protocol, I really don't know. There is a protocol for the title of lama and khenpo though this is not standard across all lineages.

And, in closing, the professor example: There are actually grades of academia/scholarship within Western educational systems. These grades come with titles. Honorary and scholastically earned.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:05 pm 
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Harold wrote:
Greg the professor you mentioned was he a professor or a great professor.

Yours Truly

Harold Rinpoche or can I call myself RINPOCHEN ?


Here are some lists of titles and ranks of professors in various countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_academic_ranks

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