Investigating fake lamas

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:16 am

It would be great if newcomers could benefit from your insights.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby muni » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:15 pm


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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:36 pm

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby muni » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:43 pm


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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby untxi » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:53 pm


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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby untxi » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:28 pm

on the vajrayana path, the responsibility really rests on the individual practitioner. because of cultural problems with authority, esteem, identity, and whatever, we tend to project transfer responsibility to the lama and away from the self. culturally that's to be expected, but it needs to be recognized and appropriately dealt with. i'm not suggesting the lama has no responsibilities and ethical requirements in the student teacher relationship. i'm also not suggesting that it's not helpful to make it known when there are frauds and fakes about. but most of the terrain is very grey and subtle and it's up to us as individuals to shed light on what works and doesn't work in a student teacher relationship based on our circumstances and personal proclivities. one extreme is blind faith in either a true (or false) teacher-- which goes nowhere. the other extreme is constant doubt, anxiety and uncertainty-- of which false-lama-monomania is one manifestation.

jkhedrub posted some excellent things on this. it's really helpful for all of us to know and share the teachings on how to examine and follow a teacher. that's the only way to empower people to move away from the extremes of blind faith and doubt to a real working relationship with a teacher. the lam rim is excellent for this. the ngondro commentaries are also excellent for this.

-u

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Grigoris » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:52 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby futerko » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:22 pm


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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:34 pm

Hey Greg,

Someone just brought me a compilation of rarer Lam Rims that were translated for His Holiness the Dalai Lama's teachings at Ganden/Drepung recently, so I have the information at hand.

The Essence of All Sublime Discourses (aka Gomchen Lam Rim)
by Gomchen Ngawang Drakpa
trans. Rosemary Patton

The Characteristics of the spiritual masters to be relied upon

Rely upon those who
1) Have tamed the mount of their mind by training in ethical discipline
2) And with the ropes of remembrance and watchfulness in concentration have made it serviceable,
3)Perceive profound thusness with the eye of wisdom,
4)Have studied much and (5) have good qualities that surpass their disciples'
6)Understanding thusness by just scriptural citations and logical arguments is also acceptable
7) Are proficient speakers with the skill to guide others progressively,
8) Have loving natures as they are moved by compassion when they teach,
9) Have constant joy and enthusiasm and, (10) overcome lassitude for teaching.
Although the five- the three trainings, understanding thusness and compassion-
Are essential, given the times if they are difficult to find,
Between good and bad, see it as key to have more good qualities.

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Yudron » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:40 pm

Yes, I think it would be useful to pin these qualities of a Mahayana teacher from the Lam Rim and the qualities of a Vajrayana Guru from the Kunzang Lama'i Shelung or some other source, on DW somewhere for ongoing reference.
Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom Blogger at Very active on Twitter.

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:40 pm


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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:50 pm

From Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation:
http://www.amnyitrulchung.org/teachings/materials/

III. CHARACTERISTICS OF EACH CLASSIFICATION
A. Nirmanakaya and Sambhogakaya Spiritual Masters
Having purified the two obscurations, Buddha embodies the perfection of the purifications. Possessing the two omniscient wisdoms, he embodies the perfection of primordial wisdom.2
B. Bodhisattva Spiritual Masters
Bodhisattva spiritual masters who have attained higher levels, from the first to the tenth bhumi, possess varying amounts of wisdom and purification. In particular, bodhisattvas who attain levels above the eighth possess ten powers to benefit other beings: the power over life, mind, provision of necessities, cause or action, birth, intentions, aspiration prayers, miracles, wisdom awareness, and Dharma.
“Power over life” means one can live as long as one wishes. “Power over mind” means one can maintain meditative concentration as long as one wishes. “Power over provision of necessities” means one can shower down a rain of limitless necessities on sentient beings. “Power over cause” means one can shift the effects of karma from one particular life to another sphere, world, realm, or birth. “Power over birth” means one can maintain meditative concentration and, if born in the desire world, one will not be affected by its faults. “Power over intentions” means that one can change whatever one wishes into earth, water, fire, and so forth. “Power over aspiration prayers” means that if one aspires to perfectly benefit oneself and others, it will be accomplished.
“Power over miracles” means one can exhibit innumerable manifestations in order to cause sentient beings to be interested in the spiritual path.
“Power over wisdom awareness” means one has perfected the understanding of phenomena, their meaning, the definition of words, and confidence.
“Power over Dharma” means that, in an instant, bodhisattvas can fully satisfy all the sentient beings according to their dispositions and in their different languages through words and groupings of letters based on many different types of sutras and so forth.
C. Ordinary Spiritual Masters
There are three types of ordinary spiritual masters: those who possess eight qualities, those who possess four qualities, and those who possess two qualities. Concerning the first one, Bodhisattva Bhumis says:
One should understand that a bodhisattva who has eight qualities is a perfect spiritual master. What are the eight? One who: possesses the moral ethics of a Bodhisattva, is learned in the bodhisattva’s teachings, possesses realization, possesses compassion and kindness, possesses fearlessness, possesses patience, possesses an indefatigable mind, and is expert in verbal expression.
The second is described in the Ornament ofMahayana Sutra:
Possessing great scholarship and dispelling doubt, Whatever he says is acceptable, distinguishing the two realities3— This is a perfect bodhisattva spiritual master.
“Possessing great scholarship” refers to being able to give more extensive teachings because of vast wisdom. The spiritual master can dispel doubt because he has profound discriminating awareness. His words are acceptable because his action is pure virtue. He explains the primary characteristics of afflicting emotions and of their purification.
The third is portrayed in Engaging in the Conduct of Bodhisattvas:
A spiritual master is always
Expert in the Mahayana teachings.
He will not abandon the bodhisattva’s vow
Even at the risk of his own life.
In other words, a spiritual master is learned in the Mahayana vehicle and holds the bodhisattva’s vow.

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby lama tsewang » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:12 pm

please please, this list from khedrup is not wrong, AND AND it does not contradict some suppopsed list of Vajrayana qualities.
A TEacher will never never teach their students to contradict conventional morality.
THey will always teach their students about cause and effect.

If a teacher does actions against precepts they will face consequences, karmic consequences . ALWAYS. What the results will be are dependent on their motives , and all the other factors as we all know.

Now, if they give their students the idea that they should follow or copy their activities, thats wrong.

if a teacher does activities that are against conventional morality , because of their own three poisons, then thats their own problem,
if they then try to not admit to themselves or others that this due to their mistakes.
then this can become a problem.

tsewang

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Wayfarer » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:44 am

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Yudron » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:13 am

Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom Blogger at Very active on Twitter.

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby lama tsewang » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:19 am

hmmm, I hold alineage of teachings from Thangtong Gyalpo, the Shangpa lineage . Hmm, what to say to such a statement. Yes I am familiar with the DOm Sum, and I know that the one that is contained in the book , Perfect Conduct says that the best vAjrayana practitioner, in general , is one who is a bhikshu, with the Bodhisattva precepts, its on page 12.
What are you referring to in the books of Jamgon Kongtrul , can you say specifically?
there is a good discussion of tulshug in ken mcleods book wake up to your life. its on page 432 . he calls it Deliberate Behaviour.
.
I remember reading the biography of Thangtong Gyalpo , at one time he was tied up and left to die in a wild area . After being tied up, his tormentors, peed on him and pooped on him. Later on, when he was freed he was vey grateful for their actions because he had gained the power of long life.

So, I am not able to eat poop or put up with any thing like I mentioned
That is why I am a monk.
PLease Yudron, be careful what you say. You have finished a three year retreat, people will listen to you.

Tsewang

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby greentara » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:31 am

jkhedrup, The Characteristics of the spiritual masters to be relied upon:
I don't agree with number 4 as much study is not indicitive of an enlightened being.
I also don't agree with number 7 as proficient speakers can be dangerous if the teacher be too glib.
I think the most important characteristic would be a feeling of peace in the presence of a teacher.

Rely upon those who
1) Have tamed the mount of their mind by training in ethical discipline
2) And with the ropes of remembrance and watchfulness in concentration have made it serviceable,
3)Perceive profound thusness with the eye of wisdom,
4)Have studied much and (5) have good qualities that surpass their disciples'
6)Understanding thusness by just scriptural citations and logical arguments is also acceptable
7) Are proficient speakers with the skill to guide others progressively,
8) Have loving natures as they are moved by compassion when they teach,
9) Have constant joy and enthusiasm and, (10) overcome lassitude for teaching.
Although the five- the three trainings, understanding thusness and compassion-
Are essential, given the times if they are difficult to find,
Between good and bad, see it as key to have more good qualities.

Yudron
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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Yudron » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:59 am

Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom Blogger at Very active on Twitter.

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby lama tsewang » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:13 am

My dear Yudron , Kalu Rinpoche never tells people to take drugs or drink , so what is the point of anything you have said , please tell me.
Furthermore, it is one of the most unconventional things there is to be a MONK!!!!!! We live on faith entirely . With out any concern for worldly success or failure!!
All the Buddhist teachers I have met are unconventional ,if they werent, they would be doing something different.
Tsewang

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Re: Investigating fake lamas

Postby Yudron » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:24 am

Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom Blogger at Very active on Twitter.


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