Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

plwk
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Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby plwk » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:21 am


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Nosta
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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby Nosta » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:46 am

I really enjoy listening to him :)

You can follow the link of the video on youtube, open the channel and acess lots of videos of Venerable Sheng-yen.

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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby zamotcr » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:47 pm

Great video!

But still I can't get it. We talk about Pure Land beyond heavens, beyond Samsara and beyond rebirth, but still in existence in this physical world, just in another galaxy far far away? Heavens seems more realistic in the sense that we can't see them because they are more subtle, not of physical material like us.

I like the idea of Pure Land, but this is my big trouble with them :(

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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby Nosta » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:18 pm

Pure Land, at the phenomenon level (I will not speak now at the noumenon level), is real.

By real here, I mean something you can experience fully as you experience your normal things now, while awake. Pure Land is real in the sense that you will feel things (objects, yourself, other beings, etc) there as you experience here: its something so real as real life, more "real" and vivid than a simple dream.

That doesnt mean that Pure Land is made of atoms like a rock, your hand or the sun. About that we cant be sure, but probably Pure Land is something more subtle, like the nature of light (so to say).

Heaven is also real, but in heaven there is suffering, even if at a subtle (and sometimes not perceivable) level. In heaven you will find the 3 marks of existence and you can back to lower levels of existence. In Pure Land thats impossible: you can only go up.

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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby Zenshin 善心 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:17 pm

All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.

Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.


- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith


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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby Nosta » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:58 pm

I said that Pure Land is real in my last post, but many times i get "weak" and ask myself "Is it real? Can really exist an holy space, out of space and time, created by a Buddha, where anyone can achieve Budahood at his own pace?". Such place, incredibly beautiful, powerful and free, looks like an impossibility, specially for rational minds like mine, thats why I will read, sometimes, storys of sucessful rebirths on Pure Land. Thats why I get happy, when I have prophetic dreams after Nembutsu (dream with high detail,about things that will happen right in the next morning; its very rare to have such dreams) because they are like signals that there is a Pure Land.

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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby sinweiy » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:31 am

_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung

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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby sinweiy » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:45 am

_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung

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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby zamotcr » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:30 pm

It is true to say that the Amitabha's Pure Land is pure, because the people born there, living there have pure minds, because they are pure?

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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby Son of Buddha » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:15 pm


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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby zamotcr » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:37 pm

I was thinking and studying a lot these days and I concluded that if the Pure Land is completely physical or is in another dimension, it doesn't change anything.
The thing is, Pure Land is real, wherever it is located, and we should strive to get there.

Another thing is, the original term for Pure Land is Buddhaksetra, which mean Buddhaland, which is very very long in extension, maybe our completely galaxy or more, this Saha World is a Buddhaland, the Buddhaland of Shakyamuni, so like this one, there are infinite ones in the cosmos.

And for the descriptions of the Pure Land, maybe they symbolize something pure, maybe it's not literal, maybe it alludes to something higher. What is gold or lapis lazuli to a enlightened being? Nothing! They are not attach to forms.

:namaste:

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PLB
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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby PLB » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:25 pm

I found this book quite clear about:
-the difference between Pure Land and heavens
-reasons to believe that Pure Land is a real place. Actually, the author says ' as real as the physical world you exist in now' :)



I like a lot the video series of Master Sheng-yen, always clear. :smile:
Amituofo

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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby Admin_PC » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:53 pm


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sinweiy
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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby sinweiy » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:24 am

_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung

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PLB
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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby PLB » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:58 pm

Amituofo

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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby Admin_PC » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:31 am


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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby zamotcr » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:03 pm

I am wondering about the Big Bang theory as origin of the universe and the Pure Lands. If the pure lands started eons of eons ago, wouldn't this mean that some pure lands existed before the big bang?
Or they all started after the big bang? Remember that science thinks that the universe has 13.700.000.000 year of existence.

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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby hornets » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:55 pm

Hi Porkchop,

I found http://www.amazon.com/Sukhavati-Western ... =sukhavati
much easier to read than other Chinese Pure Land books I've read. I actually finished it and have dipped back in several times.

Lots of general Mahayana stuff in it too that I found really helpful as well as a breakdown of the Amitabha Sutra and lots of references to modern particle physics, etc. No pictures though!

sukhavati is still available on Amazon.Uk to the best of my knowledge.
Best wishes Paul

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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

Postby Nosta » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:36 pm


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Re: Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?

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