Eckhart Tolle on christmas

[gregkavarnos]

The Buddhas teachings were not meant to be "owned" by one religious group, as I've stated Sidarth Gotama was not a Buddhist, he was just a man who rediscovered this truth.
Hmmm.. so did Eckhart, maybe he's a living Bud...

Oh, by the way, to qualify as a Buddha of this world system you have to rediscover the truth after it has completely and utterly disppeared from the world system. Which, in our case, it hasn't. So you better say the legs off his pedastal a bit coz it's gonna be a long fall for the poor guy!

[Johnny Dangerous]

Keep putting those walls up, pretty soon there will be three or four
different DW Buddhist forums. The Buddhas teachings were not meant to be
"owned" by one religious group, as I've stated Sidarth Gotama was not a
Buddhist, he was just a man who rediscovered this truth.
Hmmm.. so did Eckhart, maybe he's a living Bud...

Let Tolle be Tolle, let Buddhism be Buddhism, and everyone will get
along fine.

More like let Tolle be Tolle over there, let Buddhism be Buddhism right
here and we Buddhists can all remain blind and happy in our isolated
protected environment. FEAR FEAR FEAR.
One of my other teachers says if it is Dhamma it is Dhamma.
The Buddha never taught a sectarian religion; he taught Dhamma - the way
to liberation - which is universal. In the same tradition, Mr. Goenka's
approach is totally non-sectarian. For this reason, his teaching has a
profound appeal to people of all backgrounds, of every religion and no
religion, and from every part of the world.

Debating what Dharma is and isn't is not sectarianism though,
sectarianism would be advocating one sect over another. This is actually
about what Tolle teaches, which you haven't addressed at all other than
to say "well it's the same as Dharma", even though it's been mentioned a
bunch that it lacks things that would make it Dharma. There is nothing
sectarian about that, I can find innumerable Buddhist sects that teach
these things.

So far, it seems like you're saying I could take literally anything and
say it's Dharma, as long as it kept to the "It's all one"
philosophy.

what are the things it lacks,that would make it dharma?

A bunch have already been mentioned...emptiness/dependent origination, or at least keeping with these ideas, three marks of existence, three refuges etc.

[martin123]

Yeah

but does anyone even care if he is a Buddhist or not? The Pope
is Catholic, that's not a problem. Desmond Tutu is an Anglican, that's
not a problem. Tolle is not a Buddhist, why is that a problem? A dog is
not a horse, does that mean we should shoot all the dogs?

These
statements were made:
"Dharma is Dharma expressed through any form, Why do you guys always
want to put dead guys on such unreachable pedestles and ignore the
living enlightened ones who can exemplify the path?"
"Once you familiarise yourself with Tolle's language, which I understand
can be a barrier for some especially if English is a second language,
I'm certain you will find his teachings in line with the Buddha's."
"The Buddhas teachings were not meant to be "owned" by one religious
group, as I've stated Sidarth Gotama was not a Buddhist, he was just a
man who rediscovered this truth.
Hmmm.. so did Eckhart, maybe he's a living Bud..."
"Yes Tolle teaching focuses on these points (Dharma Seals).this is in
complete accord with what he is saying." (which is kind of back to
front logic, it would be more correct to say that Tolles words are in
accord with the Dharma Seals, since they predate Tolle by a couple of
millenia)

So for me it seems logical to establish whether his teachings are in
line with the four seals thus making them Dharma (which a couple of
people claim they are) and whether he satisifes the "credentials" of
being a Buddhist (just to clarify what sort of Dharma he is teaching).
Where is the problem in that?

I would say that his use of the term "Being" as a for synonym for "God"
may be contrary to the first of the four Dharma Seals. since belief in
God (regardless of whether it is in a dualistic relationship or not)
normally entails a form of eternalism .

And anyway, this is a Buddhist forum so why does it seem strange to you
if people compare what Tolle teahes to Buddhism?

PS I've alway wondered what sort of reception New Agers get on Abrahamic
forums, I mean do they only congregate on Hindu and Buddhist forums
since they figure they won't get their asses kicked?

i said the seals are in accord with his teaching,but i could have said
it the other way,makes no difference to me,which one u say first as
long as they are saying the same thing.talk about picking at straws.

[martin123]

The Buddhas
teachings were not meant to be "owned" by one religious group, as I've
stated Sidarth Gotama was not a Buddhist, he was just a man who
rediscovered this truth.
Hmmm.. so did Eckhart, maybe he's a living Bud...

Oh, by the way,
to qualify as a Buddha of this world system you have to rediscover the
truth after it has completely and utterly disppeared from the world
system. Which, in our case, it hasn't. So you better say the legs off
his pedastal a bit coz it's gonna be a long fall for the poor guy!

to be a buddha it doesnt mean u have to discover it own your own.but it also doesnt mean u have to be part of a lineage to discover it,in some cases it does happen.

[gregkavarnos]

When the previous Tathagatas sire had disappeared, then, there being no teacher left, their way too disappeared. And it was a way - though then broken up, crumbled away, gone to ruin, closed in, no longer passable, quite lost to view - that the Tathagata, having gained thorough knowledge of it, saw by the eye of his wisdom and knew that that was the way the perfect Buddhas of the past had followed...Therefore did he say: The Tathagata, monks, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened Buddha is the discoverer of a way unknown.

The Question of King Milinda, N.K.G. Mendis (ed) p105

Ever heard of Maitreya? The next Perfectly Enlightened Buddha of this world system? You know what the circumstances are for his arrival? One of them is the complete disappearance of the current Buddha of this world system. That's just the way things go wih Buddhas. They don't like to tread on each others toes.

So when you make statements like the above be sure to check on the facts before posting.

[martin123]

I
think Tolle has had some genuine realization and he want others to feel
the freedom he feels,nothing wrong with that.its not his fault he he
doesnt belong to a lineage.i dont know the dept of his realization,but
it is sincere,i dont think he is new ager at all.

[lowlydog]

Ah, but someone always goes and ruins it by claiming they are The One to have grasped the truth, and getting themselves crucified in the process (metaphorically speaking, of course).

I don't understand this comment at all futerko, what is the it that is ruined, and who ruined it?

[lowlydog]

A mountain and a river are different, they are not the same

At the gross level a mountain seems different than a stream, as we approach the sub-atomic level the differences dissapear, nothing but wavelets and bubbles.

[gregkavarnos]

I think Tolle has had some genuine realization and he want others to feel the freedom he feels,

Fair enough, maybe he does, I have no way to verify this or not.

nothing wrong with that.

Didn't say there was.

its not his fault he he doesnt belong to a lineage.

I didn't say it was. BUT, actually, he can go to a lineage and ask for further training and verification of his realisation.

i dont know the dept of his realization,

Neither do I

but it is sincere

This I cannot judge.

i dont think he is new ager at all.

Here I may disagree with you. If he is not "New Age" then what tradition does he belong to?

[gregkavarnos]

This satetement of yours struck me as funny:

...in one interview where both Eckhart Tolle and The Dalai Lama were present, Tolle was talking about deep presence and the Dalai Lama simply stated that very few people reach this level of awareness, from this I assumed that the Dalai Lama had recognised Tolles presence as a high level...

Actually you can just as easily read it that what the Dalai Lama said (in a very right speech manner) that very few people reach this level of awareness, including Mr Tolle. I'm not saying this is the right interpretation, just different one.

[uan]

Martin, please add a link to a teaching by Tolle teaching the Four Seals.

Sonny, one would have to look comprehensively at his teachings to see that they are covered.

Thanks but I think not. My sister really likes his stuff, and that is great! Happy to know she has found something she finds helpful! But from what she has shared with me, I beg to differ, from what I saw, as far as I am concerned, he does not teach Buddha dharma. That is why I asked for a link from you, that would have been helpful. Never mind then.

No disrespect to your sister, and you may be 100% correct, but there's no way you can judge or think to know the complete doctrine of something from one practitioner. I can't imagine you'd take the impressions of one practitioner to inform you of what Buddhism is or isn't.

Speaking of Buddhism, in this thread, there seems to be painting Buddhism with broad broad strokes. But the differences between different schools of Buddhism can be as vast as between some Buddhist schools and non Buddhist religions, ranging from the Thai Forest Forest Tradition to Chinese Pure Land to Dzogchen. And it's always a slippery slope when you have a practitioner from one tradition try to expound on what is and isn't in another tradition (as I've seen on other forums).

With regard to Tolle, he doesn't present himself, from what little I know, as a buddhist or buddhist teacher. However, as with many things, since we all come to the present moment as a result of our own circumstances and conditions, Tolle may express certain teachings we need to learn in a way that makes sense to us. There is a value in this.

Since we are all stuck in the cycle of rebirth, there's really no loss or lack of benefit if one were to choose to spend this life studying strictly from the teachings of Tolle (or any other teacher for that matter). Far better to spend a lifetime dedicated to learning more about one's true nature in some form than not.

[Sonny]

No disrespect to your sister, and you may be 100% correct, but there's no way you can judge or think to know the complete doctrine of something from one practitioner. I can't imagine you'd take the impressions of one practitioner to inform you of what Buddhism is or isn't.

Speaking of Buddhism, in this thread, there seems to be painting Buddhism with broad broad strokes. But the differences between different schools of Buddhism can be as vast as between some Buddhist schools and non Buddhist religions, ranging from the Thai Forest Forest Tradition to Chinese Pure Land to Dzogchen. And it's always a slippery slope when you have a practitioner from one tradition try to expound on what is and isn't in another tradition (as I've seen on other forums).

With regard to Tolle, he doesn't present himself, from what little I know, as a buddhist or buddhist teacher. However, as with many things, since we all come to the present moment as a result of our own circumstances and conditions, Tolle may express certain teachings we need to learn in a way that makes sense to us. There is a value in this.

Since we are all stuck in the cycle of rebirth, there's really no loss or lack of benefit if one were to choose to spend this life studying strictly from the teachings of Tolle (or any other teacher for that matter). Far better to spend a lifetime dedicated to learning more about one's true nature in some form than not.

Thank you for your response.

A couple of points. I was not relying on the impressions of one practitioner. I have studied Buddhism for close to 20 years, studying all the different schools of thought, and while I am far from an expert, I know what is the Buddha's dharma and what is not. That is why I asked for a link, incase there was information I had somehow missed with regard to Tolle teaching the Four Seals of dharma. Not only Buddhism teaches gross impermanence, other paths do as well, so just pointing to impermanence does not necessarily a complete Buddhist teaching make.

I also pointed to the value of different ways and traditions and schools of thought. They do not have to all be the same to be of true value, to me. The highest teaching is the one that works for that particular individual at that particular time. I rejoice for example, in the fact that my sister finds Tolle's teachings useful. Excellent stuff. Good for her.
There are many Buddhist teachings which many people from other religions have found very useful. Excellent stuff. Good for them.

Tolle may not represent himself as a Buddhist or Buddhist teacher, and that is wonderful, but it seems that some of his fans do, and even loudly at times. I think they protest a bit too much when Buddhists dare to ask why. But that is just my opinion.

[lowlydog]

I
think Tolle has had some genuine realization and he want others to feel
the freedom he feels,nothing wrong with that.its not his fault he he
doesnt belong to a lineage.i dont know the dept of his realization,but
it is sincere,i dont think he is new ager at all.

100% agree with you martin.

When some teachers give a dhamma talk you get a feeling that this teacher is not talking at you but to you personally, I listen to teachers of all different religions and practices and some I connect with at a deep level and some not so much. It's not my job to decipher the level of attainment of these individuals. What simply becomes apparant is that some individuals seem to be much further along the path than I am and I can learn from them.

When giving dhamma service on retreats I've had the opportunity to work in close proximity to a number of teachers and very old students, things do not always go smoothly and you can see the wisdom shine in some individuals. I've learned so much simply observing students and teachers all at different levels.

The most important lesson I've learned is we are all human beings and suffer from the same sickness, no race, religion or country is exempt.

I do not like to go around calling myself a Buddhist, i'm certain it's not important. I do however follow the precepts and have found this helpful in maintaining a lifestyle condusive to meditation. I practice daily seated meditation minimum 2hrs daily and try my best to remain present as often as I can in my day to day activities. I take refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and have repeated this at every retreat I've served or sat, most importantly I've taken this to heart. Am I a Buddhist? Who gives a fiddler's fart. I assure you the Buddha does not care what I call myself.

Oh yea, and I love the teachings of Eckhart Tolle and many others who would not be called Buddhists, and I feel just in mentioning them here at this forum. All I ask is that those who wish to disagree or question teachers I mention, is that they show the level of respect that they would like their teachers to be shown.

Obviously my opinions are out numbered here and it is far to easy for bullying to take place.

Let's keep our sticks on the ice.

[Sonny]

A mountain and a river are different, they are not the same

At the gross level a mountain seems different than a stream, as we approach the sub-atomic level the differences dissapear, nothing but wavelets and bubbles.

Come on lowly, give the whole quote! A little context please! I went on to say:

I don't understand how merely pointing out differences = putting up walls. A mountain and a river are different, they are not the same, that does not mean the one is more valuable than the other, or that they would only be of fair and equal value if they were the same. They are different, and at the same time each of equal and utter value.
Just making distinctions between things, nothing wrong with that. Same or different, problems only arise when we get biased or judgmental.

[uan]

[

A couple of points. I was not relying on the impressions of one practitioner. I have studied Buddhism for close to 20 years, studying all the different schools of thought, and while I am far from an expert, I know what is the Buddha's dharma and what is not. That is why I asked for a link, incase there was information I had somehow missed with regard to Tolle teaching the Four Seals of dharma.

I imagine you do know what the Buddha dharma is and is not, I was referring more to your impression of what Tolle does or does not teach:

But from what she has shared with me, I beg to differ, from what I saw, as far as I am concerned, he does not teach Buddha dharma.

I was drawing an analogy that what your sister has shared with you, as well as the lack of one person not giving you a specific link, is not really sufficient to say that Tolle teaches, in the same way that we probably wouldn't rely on a couple of practitioners to determine what is or isn't Zen Buddhism (for instance) or anything else.

I actually don't know much of anything of Tolle, but a bit more of his namesake Meister Eckhart.

[lowlydog]

This satetement of yours struck me as funny:

...in one interview where both Eckhart Tolle and The Dalai Lama were present, Tolle was talking about deep presence and the Dalai Lama simply stated that very few people reach this level of awareness, from this I assumed that the Dalai Lama had recognised Tolles presence as a high level...

Actually you can just as easily read it that what the Dalai Lama said (in a very right speech manner) that very few people reach this level of awareness, including Mr Tolle. I'm not saying this is the right interpretation, just different one.

There was more to the response from the Dalai Lama that led me to believe he was recognising Tolle as highly evolved rather than just applying right speech, but you are correct there is no way of knowing for sure other than coming right out and asking him.

I do believe as Tolle was writing his first book he spent much time with buddhist monks/nuns, his enlightenment may have been verified through a particular tradition. (his personal business)

[lowlydog]

A mountain and a river are different, they are not the same

At the gross level a mountain seems different than a stream, as we approach the sub-atomic level the differences dissapear, nothing but wavelets and bubbles.

Come on lowly, give the whole quote! A little context please! I went on to say:

I don't understand how merely pointing out differences = putting up walls. A mountain and a river are different, they are not the same, that does not mean the one is more valuable than the other, or that they would only be of fair and equal value if they were the same. They are different, and at the same time each of equal and utter value.
Just making distinctions between things, nothing wrong with that. Same or different, problems only arise when we get biased or judgmental.

Fair enough Sonny, here's a for you.

[martin123]

I
think Tolle has had some genuine realization and he want others to feel
the freedom he feels,nothing wrong with that.its not his fault he he
doesnt belong to a lineage.i dont know the dept of his realization,but
it is sincere,i dont think he is new ager at all.

100% agree with you martin.

When some teachers give a dhamma talk you get a feeling that this
teacher is not talking at you but to you personally, I listen to
teachers of all different religions and practices and some I connect
with at a deep level and some not so much. It's not my job to decipher
the level of attainment of these individuals. What simply becomes
apparant is that some individuals seem to be much further along the path
than I am and I can learn from them.

When giving dhamma service on retreats I've had the opportunity to work
in close proximity to a number of teachers and very old students, things
do not always go smoothly and you can see the wisdom shine in some
individuals. I've learned so much simply observing students and teachers
all at different levels.

The most important lesson I've learned is we are all human beings and
suffer from the same sickness, no race, religion or country is exempt.

I do not like to go around calling myself a Buddhist, i'm certain it's
not important. I do however follow the precepts and have found this
helpful in maintaining a lifestyle condusive to meditation. I practice
daily seated meditation minimum 2hrs daily and try my best to remain
present as often as I can in my day to day activities. I take refuge in
Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and have repeated this at every retreat I've
served or sat, most importantly I've taken this to heart. Am I a
Buddhist? Who gives a fiddler's fart. I assure you the Buddha does not
care what I call myself.

Oh yea, and I love the teachings of Eckhart Tolle and many others who
would not be called Buddhists, and I feel just in mentioning them here
at this forum. All I ask is that those who wish to disagree or question
teachers I mention, is that they show the level of respect that they
would like their teachers to be shown.

Obviously my opinions are out numbered here and it is far to easy for
bullying to take place.

Let's keep our sticks on the ice.

good man lowlydog,good man

[martin123]

I
think Tolle has had some genuine realization and he want others to feel
the freedom he feels,

fair enough, maybe he does, I have no way
to verify this or not.

nothing wrong with that.

Didn't say there was.

its not his fault he he doesnt belong to a lineage.

I
didn't say it was. BUT, actually, he can go to a lineage and ask for
further training and verification of his relaisation.

i dont know the dept of his realization,

Neither do I

but it is sincere

This I cannot judge.

i dont think he is new ager at all.

Here I may disagree
with you. If he is not "New Age" then what tradition does he belong to?

if one wants to call him new age thats fine,what do we call realized beings of the past that had no lineage?old agers?

[justsit]

Dead?