Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby T. Chokyi » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:23 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Yudron wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Nah, the schema of mahayoga and anuyoga cycles having outer, inner, secret, and innermost secret sadhanas is an across the board Nyingma thing. I have no idea if it's present in any Sarma traditions, though.



1. I hope I said the Yeshe Tsogyal sadhana was outer, cuz it is.

2. I'm not familiar with anuyoga sadhana cycles. What do you have in mind?


Oops, I think I included too little of T Chokyi's statement to make it clear what idea of his/hers, or perceived idea, I was speaking to. It seemed like T Chokyi was under the impression that the outer, inner, secret, and innermost secret schema for sadhanas was something particular to Dudjom Rinpoche. So I meant to be clarifying that this schema occurs throughout Nyingma.

As for anuyoga cycles, having mentioned mahayoga, I was just including anuyoga for good measure since this outer, inner, etc schema is also used with that yana. To be honest, I am much more familiar with particular sadhanas that are classified as anuyoga than I am with cycles and so on. While I find all these classifications somewhat interesting, I'm mostly only concerned with just doing my own day to day practice, so I haven't gone out of my way much to learn a whole lot about this stuff and am just passing along my impressions, for the most part, based on what I've come across.




LOL Pema Rigdzin :tongue: Don't worry to much, I understand that, also I enjoyed taking the afternoon to re-read the Big Red Book by Dudjom Rinpoche and participate some here. There is a section, specifically in there as well for the classifications of tantra, etc.. and there isn't anything different from what you said ...so I'm good. There are some interesting points on page 346 of the first addition (1991) some interesting things about "A Recapitulation of the Resultant Vehicles" where there is a chapter on the Distinctions Between the Outer and Inner Tantras.

Anyway...to steer back toward the topic of the Kama Wangs, there are practices that were associated with the first Kama in 1988 (USA) at Tashi Choling that unfied what we were given there, and it does take 30 days, so if you don't live close by to Oakland you will have to take some time off or make plans for a month, I hope many can make the connection.

As far as the classifications of Tantra or teachings about them, personally, I like listening to CHNN because he simplifies the meanings of what the practitioners are doing on these different "levels" so to speak, usually mentioning that "capacity" is a major factor...my favorite is when he brings up the path of renunciation etc... and explains how things are sutra or not and why, and actually he does bring these points up many times, and he illustrates them quite well, his words draw pictures for me for instance, he just keeps it very straight forward...He also gives many lungs for Anu class ... I just love how he does his comparisons... it's more like he just wants you to get the essence of this rather than go too much into concepts, or take solely an intellectual route.

Nice quote from Dudjom Rinpoche on page 347:
"The outer vehicle can unite one with the result within seven, five or three human lifetimes, and so forth, and the inner one can unite one with it in this very lifetime."

There is a short chapter on Anu class in the Red Book which I know Yudron has, because I was paying attention, lol, page 485 in my book, but not sure if you don't have the first addition what page, anyway, it's called "The lineage of Anu Yoga, the Perfection Stage" etc... there was also another place in the book that had a few pages on Anu as well by Dudjom Rinpoche.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:50 am

A great deal has changed in the last 1,000 years since the nine yana system was invented by Nubchen Sangyey Yeshe, the subsequent commentaries reframed the yanas several times to accommodate the rising star of Dzogchen.

As far as I know, these days in the Nyingma anuyoga is not a term applied to full-on sadhana practices, unless you are ChNN or one of his students. There are some texts with short visualization practices that may appear in relation to anuyoga, such as in the Kham Sum Yong Drol of Rigdzin Jatshon Nyingpo, as assembled by Kongtrul, but nothing with all the sections of a ley-jyang, a complete sadhana with all the traditional sections. For example, the Green Tara terma of Adzom Drukpa is defined as maha-ati by another main lineage holder of the tradition and as anuyoga by ChNN. Here on DW, Malcolm tried to say that the Dudjom Throma sadhanas are anuyoga, and Dudjom Rinpoche wrote it is Maha Ati.

My impression is, therefore (and I could be wrong), that ChNN has a unique way of looking at things.. which I think is based on pov as a scholar of the ancient literature.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:15 pm

Hmm, I dunno, Yudron. Maybe so. But I always got the impression from my closest gurus, the Khenpo Rinpoches, that the main distinction between Mahayoga and Anuyoga was the gradual vs instantaneous generation of the deity. But, similarly to what you've said, I think maybe the strict features denoting either classification is more according to kama, and that with terma cycles there seems to have been a lot of blending of the three inner tantras so that the sadhanas aren't strictly maha, anu, or ati... Like in many sadhanas--take for instance Tsasum Lingpa's Vajrakilaya--the generation would be instantaneous ala anuyoga, but the practice would still focus heavily on the radiation and reabsorption and other key features of mahayoga, but then the verses would be chock full of references to the base, path, and fruit of Dzogchen and the instructions explain that certain key, traditional wrathful sections are actually referring to nothing other than trekchod, even if they sound like mahayoga (i.e. "wielding the vajra weapon" if need be after offering the gek tor). And also, the precious word empowerment in these terma empowerments is virtually always (in my experience) very obviously a full on rigpai tsal wang, which stands to reason if one is to apply Dzogchen instructions in certain sections of the sadhanas, and eventually from start to finish, and at least during the dissolution phase. Long story short, I get the impression that in terma there is a much stronger emphasis on bridging the gap between maha/anu to ati.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby heart » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:38 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Hmm, I dunno, Yudron. Maybe so. But I always got the impression from my closest gurus, the Khenpo Rinpoches, that the main distinction between Mahayoga and Anuyoga was the gradual vs instantaneous generation of the deity. But, similarly to what you've said, I think maybe the strict features denoting either classification is more according to kama, and that with terma cycles there seems to have been a lot of blending of the three inner tantras so that the sadhanas aren't strictly maha, anu, or ati... Like in many sadhanas--take for instance Tsasum Lingpa's Vajrakilaya--the generation would be instantaneous ala anuyoga, but the practice would still focus heavily on the radiation and reabsorption and other key features of mahayoga, but then the verses would be chock full of references to the base, path, and fruit of Dzogchen and the instructions explain that certain key, traditional wrathful sections are actually referring to nothing other than trekchod, even if they sound like mahayoga (i.e. "wielding the vajra weapon" if need be after offering the gek tor).


First, is there a a book were the Khenpo brothers said this about anuyoga being instantaneous generation of the deity?

Somewhere Malcolm said that almost all Tibetan sadhanas were anuyoga sadhanas. Looking at the sadhanas I have many of the "concise daily practices" (gyenkhers) have instantaneous generation while the little longer sadhanas (leyangs) normally have a more gradual development stage. The explanation for this is that once you know the longer practice you don't need some many words, you already know how to do the practice. However many sadhanas from Nyinthig cycles have a very different way of phrasing the three samadhis and the five elements and other typical mahayoga features. Then in Karmey Khenpo (close disciple and linegae holder of Chokgyur Lingpa) explanation of the sadhana of Mavey Senge, a relatively straight-forward mahayoga sadhana from the Chokling Tersar he say that resting in the natural state is the ultimate protection circle and so on. This text have influenced my way of understanding sadhana practice a lot. For example he says the Jamyang Khyentse insisted that during the recitation phase the first third you concentrate on the seed-syllable of the main deity, the second third you do the "trondu" and the third part you rest in the natural state. Also the completion stage is also to rest in the natural state. It makes a lot of sense when applied and it changes your understanding of the benefits of sadhana practice.

http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Padmasam ... 1559393629

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby pemachophel » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:45 pm

:good:
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby windsweptliberty » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:52 pm

Thank you for the information Yudron. I've put my name on the email list. :woohoo:
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yeti » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:28 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:
Yes, sometimes I just pray that in the future I can understand the profundity of these practices and cycles. I believe there were a number of Dudjom Rinpoche's heart disciples who mastered such entire cycles. And that there are extensive tsa lung practices within the Khandro Thugtik. And a lot of cycles are extensive in certain areas.

EMAHO.


Your sincerity comes across in your posts, I pray that you will meet with the practices of Tsa Lung as well.
There are centers in the West with qualified teachers where you can gradually get into this. It's not really
announced publically though as far as I know at some centers, sometimes you would just have to kind of be there,
and be with a group that is lead step by step until Tsalung practice is offered by the teacher.

Take good care!

Thanks, but unfortunately I probably won't be able to utilise such practices much this life as I have a (not too badly) damaged spine since childhood and am in my late 50's on a disability pension. Still, I do try and work on this a little bit. :smile: Also, I know my teachers will teach me when I am ripe for such practices, so I do not really seek out such things anymore, for which I feel fortunate. Thanks anyway.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:00 pm

I'm sad about some things I can't do anymore in my 53 year old body with some arthritis, etc., but on the other hand my lama tells me the reason I don't have realization yet is that I am always looking here and there for this that or the other practice and not focusing on the main point. So, in a way, having limitations is a gift--because it makes me remember that advice more often and focus. A little anyway.


Yeti wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:
Yes, sometimes I just pray that in the future I can understand the profundity of these practices and cycles. I believe there were a number of Dudjom Rinpoche's heart disciples who mastered such entire cycles. And that there are extensive tsa lung practices within the Khandro Thugtik. And a lot of cycles are extensive in certain areas.

EMAHO.


Your sincerity comes across in your posts, I pray that you will meet with the practices of Tsa Lung as well.
There are centers in the West with qualified teachers where you can gradually get into this. It's not really
announced publically though as far as I know at some centers, sometimes you would just have to kind of be there,
and be with a group that is lead step by step until Tsalung practice is offered by the teacher.

Take good care!

Thanks, but unfortunately I probably won't be able to utilise such practices much this life as I have a (not too badly) damaged spine since childhood and am in my late 50's on a disability pension. Still, I do try and work on this a little bit. :smile: Also, I know my teachers will teach me when I am ripe for such practices, so I do not really seek out such things anymore, for which I feel fortunate. Thanks anyway.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:51 am

heart wrote:First, is there a a book were the Khenpo brothers said this about anuyoga being instantaneous generation of the deity?

Somewhere Malcolm said that almost all Tibetan sadhanas were anuyoga sadhanas. Looking at the sadhanas I have many of the "concise daily practices" (gyenkhers) have instantaneous generation while the little longer sadhanas (leyangs) normally have a more gradual development stage. The explanation for this is that once you know the longer practice you don't need some many words, you already know how to do the practice. However many sadhanas from Nyinthig cycles have a very different way of phrasing the three samadhis and the five elements and other typical mahayoga features. Then in Karmey Khenpo (close disciple and linegae holder of Chokgyur Lingpa) explanation of the sadhana of Mavey Senge, a relatively straight-forward mahayoga sadhana from the Chokling Tersar he say that resting in the natural state is the ultimate protection circle and so on. This text have influenced my way of understanding sadhana practice a lot. For example he says the Jamyang Khyentse insisted that during the recitation phase the first third you concentrate on the seed-syllable of the main deity, the second third you do the "trondu" and the third part you rest in the natural state. Also the completion stage is also to rest in the natural state. It makes a lot of sense when applied and it changes your understanding of the benefits of sadhana practice.

http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Padmasam ... 1559393629

/magnus


:good:

You know Magnus, the Khenpo Rinpoches are my root gurus, so I have heard many things from them in person and also read many of their teachings in books and I can't remember where and when I got that idea about anuyoga based on what I'd received from them. I just remember that being my first basic understanding of what anuyoga was principally about and considering that the main sadhanas I was practicing fit that mold. Then later I came across some more elaborate written explanation somewhere about what anuyoga supposedly consists of and that explanation said something like "anuyoga, like mahayoga, involves generation of oneself in the form of a yidam; however, while anuyoga does have a generation stage, its key focus is on completion stage practices on the channels, winds, and elements." So what I got from that is that Mahayoga is creation stage with a simple dissolution into the natural state, i.e. completion stage without elaboration, while anuyoga includes creation stage but focuses on the completion stage involving elaboration. Then of course later I realized that this is not exactly correct because even Mahayoga has practices on the channels, winds, and drops, tummo, and so forth--the very things I thought it lacked and which distinguished it from anuyoga. So finally I come across ChNN's explanation of anuyoga, which we all know well, and I was like ah yes, this matches the impression I got from my root gurus (though ChNN became every bit as much a root guru as well).
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:29 am

Well, it's possible that a lot could be cleared up when these wangs are given, if Rinpoche as the energy and time to speak.

When HH Dudjom Rinpoche referred to one Dudjom sadhana he wrote: "the development stage of the deity is the un-elaborate ati approach that goes beyond such conventional techniques as the three stages of meditation absorption and so forth..."

And further: "it is a supreme moment of total recall, the clear visualization of the self-occurring, spontaneously accomplished mandala arising in the manner of a fish leaping from water."

These kind of teachings are in accordance with how my teachers present things. The instantaneous arising of the deity, which is regarded as not other than who you are originally, is the ati-yoga style of Mahayoga. Of the four kinds of birth, this corresponds with miraculous birth. This is also how my Longchen Nyingthig lama, raised at Adzom Cho Gar presents things--and he views the ati approach to mahayoga (maha-ati) to be a specialty of that monastery.

As a side note, I asked a tsa lung master whether there was ever tummo in Mahayoga, and he had never heard of it. I'm not saying it does not exist, but I've never heard anyone ever mention it but Malcolm and now Pema Rigdzin.

I'm not a scholar at all, but usually when I'm baffled by Dharma stuff it is for good reason. :rolleye:
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby heart » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:09 am

The earliest text that we have on Mahayoga doesn't mention any tsa-lung practices. Neither the Guhyagarbha nor texts like "Dorje sempa zhulan" mention it. On the other hand these are the oldest text we have that mention Dzogchen. However many terma teachings that are called Mahayoga have tsa-lung. So for this reason everyone are quite correct. :smile:

I am reading Dalton's Anuyoga dissertation and it is quite interesting as well as easy to read. In anuyoga it seems the inner tantras are always treated together, which makes sense to me. Also it seems that the whole idea of the nine yanas comes from anuyoga, or rather the dupa do. I would really like to see some original anuyoga sadhanas and after reading about early mahayoga I would really like to see those also. That is one problem with scholars, they don't understand practical application.

/magnus
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:14 pm

Haha yeah, I'm no scholar either. There was a time when I seemed bent on becoming one, but I realized that for me there just isn't the time and I kinda dig the "one thing that frees all" approach. This is not, however, a dig on scholasticism. Who knows, maybe when I'm older and retired I'll experience a resurgence of my love for it. For now, though, I'll have my hands full trying to keep up formal practice during nursing school. :rolleye:
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:33 pm

heart wrote:The earliest text that we have on Mahayoga doesn't mention any tsa-lung practices. Neither the Guhyagarbha nor texts like "Dorje sempa zhulan" mention it. On the other hand these are the oldest text we have that mention Dzogchen. However many terma teachings that are called Mahayoga have tsa-lung. So for this reason everyone are quite correct. :smile:

I am reading Dalton's Anuyoga dissertation and it is quite interesting as well as easy to read. In anuyoga it seems the inner tantras are always treated together, which makes sense to me. Also it seems that the whole idea of the nine yanas comes from anuyoga, or rather the dupa do. I would really like to see some original anuyoga sadhanas and after reading about early mahayoga I would really like to see those also. That is one problem with scholars, they don't understand practical application.

/magnus


Uncle Scholar Magnus, what terma mahayoga texts have tsa lung in them? Are you referring here to mantra yoga, integration of breath related practices into the mantra recitation, or full-on tummo?

Yes, I read Dalton's thesis... really interesting. I presume the trulkhor, etc... were oral instructions, and no one saw the need to write them down then. But that text mentioned the higher level of physical anuyoga practice, as you know. The Meaning of maha, anu, and ati have evolved over the last thousand years, and presumably incorporated into the multiple reframings of the dupa do (the sutra that gathers all intentions) by more recent authors. Is Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche trying to harken back to the Nupchen's meaning then, and label recent terma literature in that light?
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby heart » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:34 pm

Yudron wrote:
heart wrote:The earliest text that we have on Mahayoga doesn't mention any tsa-lung practices. Neither the Guhyagarbha nor texts like "Dorje sempa zhulan" mention it. On the other hand these are the oldest text we have that mention Dzogchen. However many terma teachings that are called Mahayoga have tsa-lung. So for this reason everyone are quite correct. :smile:

I am reading Dalton's Anuyoga dissertation and it is quite interesting as well as easy to read. In anuyoga it seems the inner tantras are always treated together, which makes sense to me. Also it seems that the whole idea of the nine yanas comes from anuyoga, or rather the dupa do. I would really like to see some original anuyoga sadhanas and after reading about early mahayoga I would really like to see those also. That is one problem with scholars, they don't understand practical application.

/magnus


Uncle Scholar Magnus, what terma mahayoga texts have tsa lung in them? Are you referring here to mantra yoga, integration of breath related practices into the mantra recitation, or full-on tummo?

Yes, I read Dalton's thesis... really interesting. I presume the trulkhor, etc... were oral instructions, and no one saw the need to write them down then. But that text mentioned the higher level of physical anuyoga practice, as you know. The Meaning of maha, anu, and ati have evolved over the last thousand years, and presumably incorporated into the multiple reframings of the dupa do (the sutra that gathers all intentions) by more recent authors. Is Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche trying to harken back to the Nupchen's meaning then, and label recent terma literature in that light?


:smile: Tukdrup Barche Kunsel from Chokling Tersar is considered Mahayoga, but it got just about everything you can imagine inside.

Like you said I don't know single practice, except for what I got from ChNNR, that is called anuyoga. It seem to me that most sadhana's I do are kind of maha-ati, no matter if it is instant development or not. On a practical level I still try to understand anuyoga.

/magnus
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:24 pm

Thanks for the lead about the Chokling practice. I'll ask my local Choling people about that. Curious.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:37 pm

The few people I have contact with who are most interested in going back to the roots of Dzogchen and the oldest possible roots of Nyingma tantric practices have Sakya training. I went to college at a place--the University of Chicago--the prides itself on teaching from the original core texts of all traditions... it's famous for that kind of curriculum. I see the value in that approach. So, apparently, did Nyoshul Lungthog Tenpai Nyima, whose very name sends shivers down my spine. He is one of the great Nyingthig lamas who really relied on the Kama tradition. That being said, when he received Dzogchen he said he regreted spending so many years in retreat focusing on Shantideva's Way, rather than Dzogchen.

It's said that Katok Gompa holds the most Maha tradition of Mayayoga, as it has come down from Buddhaguyha, to Zur and Nup, unmixed with ati yoga. I have no knowledge of that.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yeti » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:55 pm

Yudron wrote:I'm sad about some things I can't do anymore in my 53 year old body with some arthritis, etc., but on the other hand my lama tells me the reason I don't have realization yet is that I am always looking here and there for this that or the other practice and not focusing on the main point. So, in a way, having limitations is a gift--because it makes me remember that advice more often and focus. A little anyway.

That is a really good point, and is where I am focusing, you really have to work with what you have got, if you focus, it can cut down the distractions, and you know, you can still do stuff to utilise the tsa lung principles. You can actually use utilise your aging to be less distracted.

Don't forget Vairotsana teaching Pang Mipham Gönpo (http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pang_Sangy%C3%A9_G%C3%B6npo), this transmission is in the Nyingma Kahma.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:27 am

Yeti wrote:
Yudron wrote:I'm sad about some things I can't do anymore in my 53 year old body with some arthritis, etc., but on the other hand my lama tells me the reason I don't have realization yet is that I am always looking here and there for this that or the other practice and not focusing on the main point. So, in a way, having limitations is a gift--because it makes me remember that advice more often and focus. A little anyway.

That is a really good point, and is where I am focusing, you really have to work with what you have got, if you focus, it can cut down the distractions, and you know, you can still do stuff to utilise the tsa lung principles. You can actually use utilise your aging to be less distracted.

Don't forget Vairotsana teaching Pang Mipham Gönpo (http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pang_Sangy%C3%A9_G%C3%B6npo), this transmission is in the Nyingma Kahma.


I don't know anything about these fancy things, but I know Sukhasiddhi was a late bloomer also.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby T. Chokyi » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:03 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
heart wrote:First, is there a a book were the Khenpo brothers said this about anuyoga being instantaneous generation of the deity?

Somewhere Malcolm said that almost all Tibetan sadhanas were anuyoga sadhanas. Looking at the sadhanas I have many of the "concise daily practices" (gyenkhers) have instantaneous generation while the little longer sadhanas (leyangs) normally have a more gradual development stage. The explanation for this is that once you know the longer practice you don't need some many words, you already know how to do the practice. However many sadhanas from Nyinthig cycles have a very different way of phrasing the three samadhis and the five elements and other typical mahayoga features. Then in Karmey Khenpo (close disciple and linegae holder of Chokgyur Lingpa) explanation of the sadhana of Mavey Senge, a relatively straight-forward mahayoga sadhana from the Chokling Tersar he say that resting in the natural state is the ultimate protection circle and so on. This text have influenced my way of understanding sadhana practice a lot. For example he says the Jamyang Khyentse insisted that during the recitation phase the first third you concentrate on the seed-syllable of the main deity, the second third you do the "trondu" and the third part you rest in the natural state. Also the completion stage is also to rest in the natural state. It makes a lot of sense when applied and it changes your understanding of the benefits of sadhana practice.

http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Padmasam ... 1559393629

/magnus


:good:

You know Magnus, the Khenpo Rinpoches are my root gurus, so I have heard many things from them in person and also read many of their teachings in books and I can't remember where and when I got that idea about anuyoga based on what I'd received from them. I just remember that being my first basic understanding of what anuyoga was principally about and considering that the main sadhanas I was practicing fit that mold. Then later I came across some more elaborate written explanation somewhere about what anuyoga supposedly consists of and that explanation said something like "anuyoga, like mahayoga, involves generation of oneself in the form of a yidam; however, while anuyoga does have a generation stage, its key focus is on completion stage practices on the channels, winds, and elements." So what I got from that is that Mahayoga is creation stage with a simple dissolution into the natural state, i.e. completion stage without elaboration, while anuyoga includes creation stage but focuses on the completion stage involving elaboration. Then of course later I realized that this is not exactly correct because even Mahayoga has practices on the channels, winds, and drops, tummo, and so forth--the very things I thought it lacked and which distinguished it from anuyoga. So finally I come across ChNN's explanation of anuyoga, which we all know well, and I was like ah yes, this matches the impression I got from my root gurus (though ChNN became every bit as much a root guru as well).


He does give many Anuyoga empowerments that is for sure, perhaps he "names" or "calls" them that because in Sarma, where he has a background the tantra for highest class is grouped Anu, I think Anu has three or four "divisions" according to Nyinamapa, including "Maha-Anu".

Complications arise as seemingly equivalent terms can have subtle variations in use and meaning according to context, the time and place of use. When my teachers taught me Phowa for instance, they had an outer, inner, and secret kind of classification for Phowa, this idea of "outer, inner, and secret", the levels taught had to do with either Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya or Dharmakaya. Outer is considered Nirmanakaya, inner is Sambhogakaya, secret is Dharmakaya.

Practices are often spoken of this way, outer Tsogyal practice was mentioned earlier in the thread a Nirmanakaya classification for instance. The "inner" in the same highest tantra class would be Kurekulle, and then Dharmakaya (secret level) is Troma in Dudjom lineage, another way to put this is although they are taught seperately they are inseperable. It used to be that practitioners that did not have Troma empowerment etc could not sit in the practice during the Troma Sadhana where I took the empowerment, but that may have changed, we weren't allowed to show any of the supports for this practice anywhere.

I mentioned Phowa, because it has "inner, outer, secret" just like the manifestations of "inner, outer, secret" when it comes to our understanding the feminine wisdom being on the various levels of Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Dharmakaya, or for instance when we take refuge there is the classification of "inner, outer, and secret" refuges. Refuge at the inner level isn't considered the same as outer refuge, outer refuge is in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha (the three jewels) inner refuge is Guru, Deva, Dakini, and then there is this division of secret refuge (nadi, prana, bindu) and then the ultimate level of refuge. From what I know CHNN gives that later.

Generally a practitioner who is new to the path is gradually guided through "outer, inner, and secret" practices within Nyingmapa, usually one does approach a Nyingmapa teacher asking for the "three roots" from the "get go", this is the "inner" way to practice from the highest tantra classification, for outer one would take refuge the outer way in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, (three jewels) and later take the inner refuge and so forth, also in Ngondro there is an "outer" section" and "inner" section so these terms are also used there, but, equivalent terms can have subtle variations in use and meaning according to context, so the context is important to understand.

Without some time and preparation on the basic outer generation stage and learning what to do during the Sadhana, how to place ones mind, receiving teachings etc on dissolution and so forth are generally taught gradually by our teachers, like The Khenpo Brothers, so one can learn completion stage later, one understands that "inner" practices and secret practices are generally for later on and have to do with energy, the idea is that one is learning and applying the practices, and gaining experience & realizations during their transformation practices.

I have met practitioners that believe that their form of phowa is the "only" phowa because that was what they were taught for decades... some look a little surpirsed to hear there are other forms, so not eveybody for instance practice Sambhogakaya phowa, or the secret Dharmakaya phowa, most practice the first form of phowa, the Nirmanakaya Phowa, and as Khenchen Tsewang Gyatso has said of those that are practicing on the Sambhogakaya & Dharmakaya phowas: "they better have their meditation right"....

CHNN has not taught outer phowa in 7 years that I have been listening and a member of Dzogchen Community, this is not a criticism though, please don't read it that way because he has taught what I think is classified as chos sku gtad med kyi 'pho ba which is how to meditate Dharmakaya way when you are passing, and he gives his students many reasons and explanations for this, also while teaching what is known as "Dharmakaya phowa" he is explaining transference as practiced Nirmanakaya way so peeps can understand this comparison, he often does these comparisons, as I have heard this teaching many times from CHNN, you too?

It is true that the empowerments correlate to the levels of practice, if you study on the empowerments, there is for instance a vase empowerment and so forth, and then later the "word" empowerment they each have a relation to a cause for inner, outer, secret and most secret levels of practice, that is why empowerment is indespensible, but there is also the blessing of the teacher, in other words by his blessing, getting into the energy of what he is doing "bam", at least thats what I feel happens with the lungs CHNN gives. Making correlations between "inner, outer, and secret" of highest tantra and then comparing them to divisions within 9 yanas of tantra could be a kind of exercise, but I have not heard it taught that way, not so much when discussing the practices of "inner, outer, secret, and most secret within the category of highest tantra anyway.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:25 am

Interesting. Looking at the Longchen Nyingthig ngondro, three levels of refuge are in the four lines of the refuge section, and this happens in other ngondros as well. People may not understand that they are saying in that verse, but it is there from the start. I've never heard that called outer/inner/secret, but I can imagine some one could.

The Khandro Thukthig has four main practices, Sengdongma is the secret practice and Throma is the innermost secret (yang sang). This is not the famous Throma Nakmo of Dudjom Lingpa, but a super short practice in the Khandro Thugthig. Hardly anyone practices it, and it was never developed into the usual form we expect of a sadhana. The wang can be given separately, and I have received each of these wangs, but Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche told me (during one of my few momentary contacts with him) that the main Khandro Thugthig wang sufficed for all the practices in the cycle. Seng dongma and Throma are not anymore Dharmakaya than Yeshe Tsogyal, and the language of the Yeshe Tsogyal sadhana contains overt references to the highest practices of Dzogchen.

I think maybe we are looking for a little more consistency in the terminology than is really present in the terma tradition.
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