I've given you reasons, you have chosen to disagree. It's your prerogative.Johnny Dangerous wrote:Since you've given me no reason to disbelieve what I wrote, nor any real argument against it (which i'm certainly open to by the way), i'll leave it at that.l
Eckhart Tolle on christmas
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
Cut the patronising nonsense lowlydog, it is simply a fact that not everybody here believes Tolle is the new Messiah, it's got nothing to do with truth and everything to do with opinions (on both sides). Some believe Tolle has a message of truth, some do not. In both cases it is a matter of karmic predisposition.lowlydog wrote:Never under estimate the power of the truth, A meditator soon realizes the difference between apparent and actual truth: that what appears solid, hard, and impenetrable at the gross level is actually nothing but wavelets and vibrations at the subtler level.
Front, back, in all ten directions,
whatever you see
is the real;
to be free from error today -
ask [for] nothing else now
but that.
Saraha Tantric Treasures
...
18. All adherents to tenet systems are dogmatists.
19. Tirthikas as well have many virtues which are to be accomplished.
20. Non-Buddhists and Buddhists are distinguished by taking refuge.
...
Jigten Sumgon Gonchig
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
2. Buddhism has no God nor does it consider any natural law ultimate.lowlydog wrote:1. At the ultimate level Truth cannot be believed only experienced.
2. Truth is God, the law of nature is truth.
3. Tolle experiences truth, one cannot think truth.
4. Read his books.
Depends on how you interpret words, words have different meanings to different people.
Based on point 1 it follows that:
3. Since you cannot believe in truth you cannot tell what truth is, neither can one know what some other people experience, making truth completely incommunicable and subjective.
4. Since truth cannot be told it can't be written either.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
That depends on your definition of the word God.http://youtu.be/2MSaVFuc3EI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Astus wrote: 2. Buddhism has no God nor does it consider any natural law ultimate.
Based on point 1 it follows that:
3. Since you cannot believe in truth you cannot tell what truth is, neither can one know what some other people experience, making truth completely incommunicable and subjective.
4. Since truth cannot be told it can't be written either.
3. You cannot believe the truth at the ultimate level, nor can you satisfy your hunger by watching others eat, making truth at the ultimate level indescribable.
4. Exactly, words cannot describe the ultimate level of truth.
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
We are all at different places on the path and come from different backgrounds, but it has everything to do with the truth.gregkavarnos wrote: it's got nothing to do with truth and less and everything to do with opinions (on both sides). Some believe Tolle has a message of truth, some do not. In both cases it is a matter of karmic predisposition.
Dharma is dharma we need to look past the words to see the truth.
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
In which case, even in lies there is Dharma?lowlydog wrote:We are all at different places on the path and come from different backgrounds, but it has everything to do with the truth.
Dharma is dharma we need to look past the words to see the truth.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
To lie is to deliver a false statement to another person which the speaking person knows is not the whole truth, intentionally.gregkavarnos wrote: In which case, even in lies there is Dharma?
You can answer your own question.
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
So this was a lie then? If Dharma is dharma and we need to look past words to see the truth, then even false words, if we look past them, contain the truth.lowlydog wrote:Dharma is dharma we need to look past the words to see the truth
Last edited by Grigoris on Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Mistaken quotation
Reason: Mistaken quotation
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
So the New Age sentiment of anything goes as long as you agree that anything goes.gregkavarnos wrote:So this was a lie then? If Dharma is dharma and we need to look past words to see the truth, then even false words, if we look past them, contain the truth.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
Do you know of a sutra where the Buddha talks about God?lowlydog wrote:That depends on your definition of the word God.http://youtu.be/2MSaVFuc3EI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3. You cannot believe the truth at the ultimate level, nor can you satisfy your hunger by watching others eat, making truth at the ultimate level indescribable.
4. Exactly, words cannot describe the ultimate level of truth.
As I said, if that ultimate level cannot be told or described there is nothing to talk about.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
There is a 16 page discussion of this right here so I don't think we need to take this thread down that path.lowlydog wrote:That depends on your definition of the word God.http://youtu.be/2MSaVFuc3EI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
Given Eckhart Tolle is not a Dharma teacher in any recognised tradition and given we are discussing his theories (albeit a comparitive discussion with recognised traditional BuddhaDharma) I have moved the discussion to the lounge.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
Yes, many, but the word god is not used. Do you know a sutra where the Buddha used the word suffering?Astus wrote:Do you know of a sutra where the Buddha talks about God?
As I said, if that ultimate level cannot be told or described there is nothing to talk about.
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
Here is one for you to start with Dukkhata Sutta.lowlydog wrote:Do you know a sutra where the Buddha used the word suffering?
Then you can try this one Maha-dukkhakkhandha Sutta.
Or this one Cula-dukkhakkhandha Sutta
This one is a key teaching The First Noble Truth: The Noble Truth of dukkha (dukkha ariya sacca)
I guess that's enough of a primer, what do you reckon?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
translated from the Pali bygregkavarnos wrote:Here is one for you to start with Dukkhata Sutta.lowlydog wrote:Do you know a sutra where the Buddha used the word suffering?
Maurice O'Connell Walshe
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
Your point being?lowlydog wrote:translated from the Pali by
Maurice O'Connell Walshe
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
I don't believe the Buddha ever used the word god or suffering as he did not speak English, the sutras have been translated. But thanks for providing all the links to those sutras, they are always a good read.gregkavarnos wrote:Your point being?lowlydog wrote:translated from the Pali by
Maurice O'Connell Walshe
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
You can't be serious??? You are joking right???
He used the Pali and Sanskrit terms
dukkka दुक्ख and duhkha दुःख
deva देव
devata देवता
which are the Pali and Sanskrit equivalents of the English words suffering/stress, god and deity.
He used the Pali and Sanskrit terms
dukkka दुक्ख and duhkha दुःख
deva देव
devata देवता
which are the Pali and Sanskrit equivalents of the English words suffering/stress, god and deity.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
Hey Greg,
There is a higher reality beyond body and mind, which is called God by religions. Eckhart Tolle prefers not to use the word ‘God’ because the word is misused for years and the moment we start with that word, we start with a bias or pre-judgements.
He calls this higher reality as ‘Being’. Being is our true nature beyond the body and mind. Because it is beyond the mind, we can not understand the Being state using mind and logic. One has to experience it. Being is an eternal state, with stillness and peace, inside us.
There is a higher reality beyond body and mind, which is called God by religions. Eckhart Tolle prefers not to use the word ‘God’ because the word is misused for years and the moment we start with that word, we start with a bias or pre-judgements.
He calls this higher reality as ‘Being’. Being is our true nature beyond the body and mind. Because it is beyond the mind, we can not understand the Being state using mind and logic. One has to experience it. Being is an eternal state, with stillness and peace, inside us.
Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas
Something cannot be beyond present existence and within the realm of experience at the same time. What is it experienced by if not body or mind? If it is inside us then it cannot be beyond us. If it is our true nature then it should manifest in this existence too, because it is here right now. If it is our true existence and currently abiding then it would make this current existence eternal like you claim this Being is. If it is our true nature and currently abiding within us then it should be comprehensible by mind and logic since mind and logic is where we are right here and now. Ad nauseum.lowlydog wrote:Hey Greg,
There is a higher reality beyond body and mind, which is called God by religions. Eckhart Tolle prefers not to use the word ‘God’ because the word is misused for years and the moment we start with that word, we start with a bias or pre-judgements.
He calls this higher reality as ‘Being’. Being is our true nature beyond the body and mind. Because it is beyond the mind, we can not understand the Being state using mind and logic. One has to experience it. Being is an eternal state, with stillness and peace, inside us.
So is it beyond us or within us? Both? Neither?
Is it eternal or impermanent? Both? Neither?
Is it here now or elsewhere and somewhere else in time? Both? Neither?
The theory (or your presentation of it) is holier than a sieve. Either Mr Tolle (or you) need to work on it a little bit more.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde