Eckhart Tolle on christmas

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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:16 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Since you've given me no reason to disbelieve what I wrote, nor any real argument against it (which i'm certainly open to by the way), i'll leave it at that.l
I've given you reasons, you have chosen to disagree. It's your prerogative.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:23 am

lowlydog wrote:Never under estimate the power of the truth, A meditator soon realizes the difference between apparent and actual truth: that what appears solid, hard, and impenetrable at the gross level is actually nothing but wavelets and vibrations at the subtler level. :smile:
Cut the patronising nonsense lowlydog, it is simply a fact that not everybody here believes Tolle is the new Messiah, it's got nothing to do with truth and everything to do with opinions (on both sides). Some believe Tolle has a message of truth, some do not. In both cases it is a matter of karmic predisposition.
Front, back, in all ten directions,
whatever you see
is the real;

to be free from error today -
ask [for] nothing else now
but that.

Saraha Tantric Treasures

...
18. All adherents to tenet systems are dogmatists.
19. Tirthikas as well have many virtues which are to be accomplished.
20. Non-Buddhists and Buddhists are distinguished by taking refuge.
...

Jigten Sumgon Gonchig
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Astus » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:19 pm

lowlydog wrote:1. At the ultimate level Truth cannot be believed only experienced.
2. Truth is God, the law of nature is truth.
3. Tolle experiences truth, one cannot think truth.
4. Read his books.

Depends on how you interpret words, words have different meanings to different people. :smile:


2. Buddhism has no God nor does it consider any natural law ultimate.

Based on point 1 it follows that:

3. Since you cannot believe in truth you cannot tell what truth is, neither can one know what some other people experience, making truth completely incommunicable and subjective.
4. Since truth cannot be told it can't be written either.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:09 pm

Astus wrote:2. Buddhism has no God nor does it consider any natural law ultimate.

Based on point 1 it follows that:

3. Since you cannot believe in truth you cannot tell what truth is, neither can one know what some other people experience, making truth completely incommunicable and subjective.
4. Since truth cannot be told it can't be written either.


That depends on your definition of the word God.http://youtu.be/2MSaVFuc3EI

3. You cannot believe the truth at the ultimate level, nor can you satisfy your hunger by watching others eat, making truth at the ultimate level indescribable.

4. Exactly, words cannot describe the ultimate level of truth. :smile:
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:43 pm

gregkavarnos wrote: it's got nothing to do with truth and less and everything to do with opinions (on both sides). Some believe Tolle has a message of truth, some do not. In both cases it is a matter of karmic predisposition.


We are all at different places on the path and come from different backgrounds, but it has everything to do with the truth.

Dharma is dharma we need to look past the words to see the truth. :smile:
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:45 pm

lowlydog wrote:We are all at different places on the path and come from different backgrounds, but it has everything to do with the truth.

Dharma is dharma we need to look past the words to see the truth. :smile:
In which case, even in lies there is Dharma?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:05 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:In which case, even in lies there is Dharma?

To lie is to deliver a false statement to another person which the speaking person knows is not the whole truth, intentionally.

You can answer your own question. :smile:
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:33 pm

lowlydog wrote:Dharma is dharma we need to look past the words to see the truth
So this was a lie then? If Dharma is dharma and we need to look past words to see the truth, then even false words, if we look past them, contain the truth.
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Mistaken quotation
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Astus » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:59 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:So this was a lie then? If Dharma is dharma and we need to look past words to see the truth, then even false words, if we look past them, contain the truth.
:namaste:


So the New Age sentiment of anything goes as long as you agree that anything goes.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Astus » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:01 pm

lowlydog wrote:That depends on your definition of the word God.http://youtu.be/2MSaVFuc3EI

3. You cannot believe the truth at the ultimate level, nor can you satisfy your hunger by watching others eat, making truth at the ultimate level indescribable.

4. Exactly, words cannot describe the ultimate level of truth. :smile:


Do you know of a sutra where the Buddha talks about God?

As I said, if that ultimate level cannot be told or described there is nothing to talk about.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:30 pm

lowlydog wrote:That depends on your definition of the word God.http://youtu.be/2MSaVFuc3EI
There is a 16 page discussion of this right here so I don't think we need to take this thread down that path.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:36 pm

Given Eckhart Tolle is not a Dharma teacher in any recognised tradition and given we are discussing his theories (albeit a comparitive discussion with recognised traditional BuddhaDharma) I have moved the discussion to the lounge.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:38 pm

Astus wrote:Do you know of a sutra where the Buddha talks about God?

As I said, if that ultimate level cannot be told or described there is nothing to talk about.


Yes, many, but the word god is not used. Do you know a sutra where the Buddha used the word suffering?
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:06 pm

lowlydog wrote:Do you know a sutra where the Buddha used the word suffering?
Here is one for you to start with Dukkhata Sutta.
Then you can try this one Maha-dukkhakkhandha Sutta.
Or this one Cula-dukkhakkhandha Sutta
This one is a key teaching The First Noble Truth: The Noble Truth of dukkha (dukkha ariya sacca)
I guess that's enough of a primer, what do you reckon?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:10 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
lowlydog wrote:Do you know a sutra where the Buddha used the word suffering?
Here is one for you to start with Dukkhata Sutta.
:namaste:

translated from the Pali by

Maurice O'Connell Walshe
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:13 pm

lowlydog wrote:translated from the Pali by

Maurice O'Connell Walshe
Your point being?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:55 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
lowlydog wrote:translated from the Pali by

Maurice O'Connell Walshe
Your point being?


I don't believe the Buddha ever used the word god or suffering as he did not speak English, the sutras have been translated. But thanks for providing all the links to those sutras, they are always a good read. :smile:
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:09 pm

You can't be serious??? You are joking right???

He used the Pali and Sanskrit terms
dukkka दुक्ख and duhkha दुःख
deva देव
devata देवता
which are the Pali and Sanskrit equivalents of the English words suffering/stress, god and deity.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:57 pm

Hey Greg,

There is a higher reality beyond body and mind, which is called God by religions. Eckhart Tolle prefers not to use the word ‘God’ because the word is misused for years and the moment we start with that word, we start with a bias or pre-judgements.

He calls this higher reality as ‘Being’. Being is our true nature beyond the body and mind. Because it is beyond the mind, we can not understand the Being state using mind and logic. One has to experience it. Being is an eternal state, with stillness and peace, inside us.
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:11 pm

lowlydog wrote:Hey Greg,

There is a higher reality beyond body and mind, which is called God by religions. Eckhart Tolle prefers not to use the word ‘God’ because the word is misused for years and the moment we start with that word, we start with a bias or pre-judgements.

He calls this higher reality as ‘Being’. Being is our true nature beyond the body and mind. Because it is beyond the mind, we can not understand the Being state using mind and logic. One has to experience it. Being is an eternal state, with stillness and peace, inside us.
Something cannot be beyond present existence and within the realm of experience at the same time. What is it experienced by if not body or mind? If it is inside us then it cannot be beyond us. If it is our true nature then it should manifest in this existence too, because it is here right now. If it is our true existence and currently abiding then it would make this current existence eternal like you claim this Being is. If it is our true nature and currently abiding within us then it should be comprehensible by mind and logic since mind and logic is where we are right here and now. Ad nauseum.

So is it beyond us or within us? Both? Neither?
Is it eternal or impermanent? Both? Neither?
Is it here now or elsewhere and somewhere else in time? Both? Neither?

The theory (or your presentation of it) is holier than a sieve. Either Mr Tolle (or you) need to work on it a little bit more.
holy sieve.jpg
holy sieve.jpg (11.54 KiB) Viewed 495 times
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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