Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:31 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 241 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 13  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:16 am 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Since you've given me no reason to disbelieve what I wrote, nor any real argument against it (which i'm certainly open to by the way), i'll leave it at that.l
I've given you reasons, you have chosen to disagree. It's your prerogative.
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:23 am 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
lowlydog wrote:
Never under estimate the power of the truth, A meditator soon realizes the difference between apparent and actual truth: that what appears solid, hard, and impenetrable at the gross level is actually nothing but wavelets and vibrations at the subtler level. :smile:
Cut the patronising nonsense lowlydog, it is simply a fact that not everybody here believes Tolle is the new Messiah, it's got nothing to do with truth and everything to do with opinions (on both sides). Some believe Tolle has a message of truth, some do not. In both cases it is a matter of karmic predisposition.
Quote:
Front, back, in all ten directions,
whatever you see
is the real;

to be free from error today -
ask [for] nothing else now
but that.

Saraha Tantric Treasures

Quote:
...
18. All adherents to tenet systems are dogmatists.
19. Tirthikas as well have many virtues which are to be accomplished.
20. Non-Buddhists and Buddhists are distinguished by taking refuge.
...

Jigten Sumgon Gonchig

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:19 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Posts: 4203
Location: Budapest
lowlydog wrote:
1. At the ultimate level Truth cannot be believed only experienced.
2. Truth is God, the law of nature is truth.
3. Tolle experiences truth, one cannot think truth.
4. Read his books.

Depends on how you interpret words, words have different meanings to different people. :smile:


2. Buddhism has no God nor does it consider any natural law ultimate.

Based on point 1 it follows that:

3. Since you cannot believe in truth you cannot tell what truth is, neither can one know what some other people experience, making truth completely incommunicable and subjective.
4. Since truth cannot be told it can't be written either.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm
Posts: 371
Astus wrote:
2. Buddhism has no God nor does it consider any natural law ultimate.

Based on point 1 it follows that:

3. Since you cannot believe in truth you cannot tell what truth is, neither can one know what some other people experience, making truth completely incommunicable and subjective.
4. Since truth cannot be told it can't be written either.


That depends on your definition of the word God.http://youtu.be/2MSaVFuc3EI

3. You cannot believe the truth at the ultimate level, nor can you satisfy your hunger by watching others eat, making truth at the ultimate level indescribable.

4. Exactly, words cannot describe the ultimate level of truth. :smile:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm
Posts: 371
gregkavarnos wrote:
it's got nothing to do with truth and less and everything to do with opinions (on both sides). Some believe Tolle has a message of truth, some do not. In both cases it is a matter of karmic predisposition.


We are all at different places on the path and come from different backgrounds, but it has everything to do with the truth.

Dharma is dharma we need to look past the words to see the truth. :smile:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:45 pm 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
lowlydog wrote:
We are all at different places on the path and come from different backgrounds, but it has everything to do with the truth.

Dharma is dharma we need to look past the words to see the truth. :smile:
In which case, even in lies there is Dharma?
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm
Posts: 371
gregkavarnos wrote:
In which case, even in lies there is Dharma?

To lie is to deliver a false statement to another person which the speaking person knows is not the whole truth, intentionally.

You can answer your own question. :smile:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:33 pm 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
lowlydog wrote:
Dharma is dharma we need to look past the words to see the truth
So this was a lie then? If Dharma is dharma and we need to look past words to see the truth, then even false words, if we look past them, contain the truth.
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mistaken quotation


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:59 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Posts: 4203
Location: Budapest
gregkavarnos wrote:
So this was a lie then? If Dharma is dharma and we need to look past words to see the truth, then even false words, if we look past them, contain the truth.
:namaste:


So the New Age sentiment of anything goes as long as you agree that anything goes.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:01 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Posts: 4203
Location: Budapest
lowlydog wrote:
That depends on your definition of the word God.http://youtu.be/2MSaVFuc3EI

3. You cannot believe the truth at the ultimate level, nor can you satisfy your hunger by watching others eat, making truth at the ultimate level indescribable.

4. Exactly, words cannot describe the ultimate level of truth. :smile:


Do you know of a sutra where the Buddha talks about God?

As I said, if that ultimate level cannot be told or described there is nothing to talk about.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:30 pm 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
lowlydog wrote:
That depends on your definition of the word God.http://youtu.be/2MSaVFuc3EI
There is a 16 page discussion of this right here so I don't think we need to take this thread down that path.

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:36 pm 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
Given Eckhart Tolle is not a Dharma teacher in any recognised tradition and given we are discussing his theories (albeit a comparitive discussion with recognised traditional BuddhaDharma) I have moved the discussion to the lounge.

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm
Posts: 371
Astus wrote:
Do you know of a sutra where the Buddha talks about God?

As I said, if that ultimate level cannot be told or described there is nothing to talk about.


Yes, many, but the word god is not used. Do you know a sutra where the Buddha used the word suffering?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:06 pm 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
lowlydog wrote:
Do you know a sutra where the Buddha used the word suffering?
Here is one for you to start with Dukkhata Sutta.
Then you can try this one Maha-dukkhakkhandha Sutta.
Or this one Cula-dukkhakkhandha Sutta
This one is a key teaching The First Noble Truth: The Noble Truth of dukkha (dukkha ariya sacca)
I guess that's enough of a primer, what do you reckon?
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm
Posts: 371
gregkavarnos wrote:
lowlydog wrote:
Do you know a sutra where the Buddha used the word suffering?
Here is one for you to start with Dukkhata Sutta.
:namaste:

translated from the Pali by

Maurice O'Connell Walshe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:13 pm 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
lowlydog wrote:
translated from the Pali by

Maurice O'Connell Walshe
Your point being?

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm
Posts: 371
gregkavarnos wrote:
lowlydog wrote:
translated from the Pali by

Maurice O'Connell Walshe
Your point being?


I don't believe the Buddha ever used the word god or suffering as he did not speak English, the sutras have been translated. But thanks for providing all the links to those sutras, they are always a good read. :smile:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:09 pm 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
You can't be serious??? You are joking right???

He used the Pali and Sanskrit terms
dukkka दुक्ख and duhkha दुःख
deva देव
devata देवता
which are the Pali and Sanskrit equivalents of the English words suffering/stress, god and deity.
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm
Posts: 371
Hey Greg,

There is a higher reality beyond body and mind, which is called God by religions. Eckhart Tolle prefers not to use the word ‘God’ because the word is misused for years and the moment we start with that word, we start with a bias or pre-judgements.

He calls this higher reality as ‘Being’. Being is our true nature beyond the body and mind. Because it is beyond the mind, we can not understand the Being state using mind and logic. One has to experience it. Being is an eternal state, with stillness and peace, inside us.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:11 pm 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
lowlydog wrote:
Hey Greg,

There is a higher reality beyond body and mind, which is called God by religions. Eckhart Tolle prefers not to use the word ‘God’ because the word is misused for years and the moment we start with that word, we start with a bias or pre-judgements.

He calls this higher reality as ‘Being’. Being is our true nature beyond the body and mind. Because it is beyond the mind, we can not understand the Being state using mind and logic. One has to experience it. Being is an eternal state, with stillness and peace, inside us.
Something cannot be beyond present existence and within the realm of experience at the same time. What is it experienced by if not body or mind? If it is inside us then it cannot be beyond us. If it is our true nature then it should manifest in this existence too, because it is here right now. If it is our true existence and currently abiding then it would make this current existence eternal like you claim this Being is. If it is our true nature and currently abiding within us then it should be comprehensible by mind and logic since mind and logic is where we are right here and now. Ad nauseum.

So is it beyond us or within us? Both? Neither?
Is it eternal or impermanent? Both? Neither?
Is it here now or elsewhere and somewhere else in time? Both? Neither?

The theory (or your presentation of it) is holier than a sieve. Either Mr Tolle (or you) need to work on it a little bit more.
Attachment:
holy sieve.jpg
holy sieve.jpg [ 11.54 KiB | Viewed 551 times ]

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 241 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 13  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group