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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Is the CNN Dzogchen Comunity - a sect ?

I saw one document where was established a "buisness plan" of DC with "selling of different products", establishing of shops of DC, and other buisness words writen by the son of CNN and aprouved by CNN himself. I was shoked.

It is a sect?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:38 pm 
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DAWN wrote:
Is the CNN Dzogchen Comunity - a sect ?

I saw one document where was established a "buisness plan" of DC with "selling of different products", establishing of shops of DC, and other buisness words writen by the son of CNN and aprouved by CNN himself. I was shoked.

It is a sect?


I am not sure what you are trying to express. Sect is a neutral term in English. Soto Zen is a sect of Buddhism, just as the Orthodox Church and the Presbyterians are Christian sects.

It was realized that because of the retreat land holdings, the webcasts, etc, all of which are largely funded by Rinpoche himself, that the community was not running in an efficient manner. Since Rinpoche's son worked as a SAP consultant and had experience with project management he was asked to develop a plan to make the community projects run more efficiently. The products you are referring to are the books published by Shang Shung (practice texts and other texts written by Rinpoche and others), ritual implements, and other things sold by the local community bookstores to support the various projects the community and its related organizations (the non-profit A.S.I.A and the educational institute Shang Shung). The point was to work with the memberships and the books etc in a way that supports the various national communities so that they are not so dependent on Rinpoche's visits.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:45 pm 
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DAWN wrote:
Is the CNN Dzogchen Comunity - a sect ?

I saw one document where was established a "buisness plan" of DC with "selling of different products", establishing of shops of DC, and other buisness words writen by the son of CNN and aprouved by CNN himself. I was shoked.


Pray tell us more about that stupefying villainy. ;-)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:47 pm 
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It is Nyingma, from what I can tell.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:49 pm 
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mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:
DAWN wrote:
Is the CNN Dzogchen Comunity - a sect ?

I saw one document where was established a "buisness plan" of DC with "selling of different products", establishing of shops of DC, and other buisness words writen by the son of CNN and aprouved by CNN himself. I was shoked.

It is a sect?


I am not sure what you are trying to express. Sect is a neutral term in English. Soto Zen is a sect of Buddhism, just as the Orthodox Church and the Presbyterians are Christian sects.

It was realized that because of the retreat land holdings, the webcasts, etc, all of which are largely funded by Rinpoche himself, that the community was not running in an efficient manner. Since Rinpoche's son worked as a SAP consultant and had experience with project management he was asked to develop a plan to make the community projects run more efficiently. The products you are referring to are the books published by Shang Shung (practice texts and other texts written by Rinpoche and others), ritual implements, and other things sold by the local community bookstores to support the various projects the community and its related organizations (the non-profit A.S.I.A and the educational institute Shang Shung). The point was to work with the memberships and the books etc in a way that supports the various national communities so that they are not so dependent on Rinpoche's visits.


It is the same in all bigger Dharma organizations, lots of ideas and aspirations and to little money. Very auspicious for ChNNR that his son have this capacity to work with these kind of problems.

DAWN, why would handling money in a sensible way make DC a sect?

/magnus

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:32 pm 
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I think i was shoked because, in my opinion, Dhamma is free, and can not be source of profit, and in what was said by son of Rimpoche, i saw the word "profit".

Also one question, if rDzogchen is a way of Bodhisattvas, and the aim of teching is to free all living beaings before yourself, why teachings of DC of CHHR is so secret and peoples have to pay for their liberation? Liberation is a market? As i know teching of Dzogchen, it teaches something alredy said by Buddha Gotama in DN22 Maha-satipatthana Sutta, and this teaching is free to acces.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

It's difficult to me to understand how Dhamma can be sold. :thinking:

Actualy, if there is some one who take a part in DC, can this person say me, if DC show to Comunity, how money is spend? If DC function like an association or like an enterprise ?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:50 pm 
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Dawn Dharma organisations have to pay for alot of things in order to give Dharma to people, Books have a cost, Centres have a running cost etc In order to run Dharma centres efficiently they need to be organised in an appropriate way, Dharma is always given freely to those who ask, But Dharma communities in the west do not have the support of say a Monastery in Tibet or India with the local populous providing care for them so they do need to be profitable to keep the doors open and the buildings warm.

Donations are needed to keep things going, Even Theravada institutions need money and appropriate organisation to make the communities sustainable. Without material support they would cease, It is not wrong to ask for donations or charge reasonable prices for certain events or publications. In my experience those who cannot afford to give are always provided for and never turned away even though I have no experience with the Dzogchen community it is not the workings of any sort of Buddhist to turn those away whom are poor or destitute whom seek Dharma instructions.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:13 pm 
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I don't know anything about cNN, i've just perused a couple of sites..but it seems like a fair question to me. The organization seems to offer "something for everyone", i'm sure cNN is an amazing, realized teacher but at first glance I have had the exact same reaction the the program, extremely well-marketed, looks like lots of fees, and all kinds of programs so that for instance if you are looking for exercise programs or something similar, there ya go..covered.

Does the organization allow for teachings if one does not have money? For sure it's true that organizations must generate money, I think the sensible thing is just to ask how the money is generated, how it's used, whether there is access when one has no money etc.

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Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:16 pm 
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Good luck paying the electrical bills without any income!

Our rural center has a bookstore, but it also has a large business renting the facility to outside groups, especially weddings. Otherwise it would have folded long ago. The lineage lamas made a decision it was better to run an unrelated business than to bring in lots of unrelated lamas to do continuous programs there. They remained focused on our main lamas who all trained under our lineage head, Dudjom Rinpoche, or his eldest son.

You need workers to run a retreat center. Workers need food, clothes, transportation, and housing, at minimum. The buildings need electricity, propane, and maintenance. These things are not free.

Monasteries in Asia are funded by major and minor donors.

If you don't have money, you talk to the center about it, and usually there are work-study arrangements.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:26 pm 
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ChNN donates a lot to the Community himself -- he's usually the biggest contributor at the raffles at the end of retreats, most prizes from which he will just offer back to the local community, as well as to the webcasts -- most of which are offered free for anyone with an Internet connection.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:28 pm 
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DAWN wrote:
I think i was shoked because, in my opinion, Dhamma is free, and can not be source of profit, and in what was said by son of Rimpoche, i saw the word "profit".

Also one question, if rDzogchen is a way of Bodhisattvas, and the aim of teching is to free all living beaings before yourself, why teachings of DC of CHHR is so secret and peoples have to pay for their liberation? Liberation is a market? As i know teching of Dzogchen, it teaches something alredy said by Buddha Gotama in DN22 Maha-satipatthana Sutta, and this teaching is free to acces.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

It's difficult to me to understand how Dhamma can be sold. :thinking:

Actualy, if there is some one who take a part in DC, can this person say me, if DC show to Comunity, how money is spend? If DC function like an association or like an enterprise ?


OK.

1. Nobody makes any profit from teaching the Dharma in the DC. Actually, it's the other way round - ChNN and KY still use a significant portion of their respectively pension and income to keep the DC going.

2. Dharma is free. Venues aren't. Nor is printing, organizing webcasts, etc. The financial side of the DC affairs is absolutely transparent to all its members, too. (I don't understand, however, why would you need to know the exact details.)

3. The yearly membership fee and the cost of retreats in the DC is much lower than it is in many other Dharma centres.

Finally, nobody in the DC 'pays for liberation', and the 'secrecy' of the teachings has absolutely nothing to do with the 'profit-making' you're talking about. And nobody 'sells any Dharma' in the DC, either.

Please allow me to give you a piece of personal advice. What you're making here is quite an accusation, and you're making it, as you admit yourself, without being really acquainted with the subject. Next time, just ask - don't charge straightaway.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Caz, I'am not sure that CNNR will make me the transmission if i ask him.

I saw many peoples who was searching for some Dzhogchen teachings, but they was refused or invited to pay a cost of membership.
It is a true Bodhichitta? :thinking:

Also, in russian part of DC, there is one story when money of some guy was stollen by the DC. Many peoples are awere of this story.

And i still shoked. Thats why i'am asking if the DC is a teachings of Buddhas, or just some profit-organisation (sect).

If distribution of money resources into DC are shown (communicated each year) to their members - it's an association.
If distribution of money resources into DC are NOT shown (communicated each year) to their members - it's an profit-enterprise.

:thinking:


Last edited by DAWN on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:32 pm 
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DAWN wrote:
I think i was shoked because, in my opinion, Dhamma is free, and can not be source of profit, and in what was said by son of Rimpoche, i saw the word "profit".

Also one question, if rDzogchen is a way of Bodhisattvas, and the aim of teching is to free all living beaings before yourself, why teachings of DC of CHHR is so secret and peoples have to pay for their liberation? Liberation is a market? As i know teching of Dzogchen, it teaches something alredy said by Buddha Gotama in DN22 Maha-satipatthana Sutta, and this teaching is free to acces.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

It's difficult to me to understand how Dhamma can be sold. :thinking:

Actualy, if there is some one who take a part in DC, can this person say me, if DC show to Comunity, how money is spend? If DC function like an association or like an enterprise ?


It makes no difference to me personally. Sure I might pay 150$ for a year membership but then I get access to literally every retreat he does and teaches. When you look at most Dharma teachers they charge 25-50$ per day of teaching usually, often adding up to anywhere from 50-150$ for a single weekend. Looked at in this way the DC actually is giving away quite a lot of teachings for very little money in return. There are also many free webcasts that anyone can watch whether they have money or not. So there is a lot of free or very cheap Dharma in the DC.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:37 pm 
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Maybe there's a language issue at work here? I assume the word "profit" in the DC documents DAWN refers to does not carry the same meaning as "profit" in the thinking of a Rockefeller or any contemporary robber baron for that matter.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:38 pm 
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DAWN wrote:
pay for their liberation? Liberation is a market?


Everything you need to liberate yourself is first of all within yourself, and second of all the teachings that help you achieve liberation are all given away free by the DC and ChNNR anyways.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:40 pm 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
I don't know anything about cNN, i've just perused a couple of sites..but it seems like a fair question to me. The organization seems to offer "something for everyone", i'm sure cNN is an amazing, realized teacher but at first glance I have had the exact same reaction the the program, extremely well-marketed, looks like lots of fees, and all kinds of programs so that for instance if you are looking for exercise programs or something similar, there ya go..covered.

Does the organization allow for teachings if one does not have money? For sure it's true that organizations must generate money, I think the sensible thing is just to ask how the money is generated, how it's used, whether there is access when one has no money etc.


As I wrote above, the fees aren't exactly mindblowing when compared to what other Dharma organizations charge. You can access most webcasts (the most essential - which is to say the most important ones) for free - and during webcasts you get all you need to practice literally dozens of secondary practices as well as the primary one. If you pay the yearly memberhip fee, you can watch and replay any webcast you want to. If you can't afford retreats, you can always contact ChNN via mail.

If you're really and truly broke but still interested in some retreat teachings, go to the nearest DC centre and ask. The answer will probably depend on the financial condition of the ling responsible for the event, but it's very unlikely they will tell you to go to hell. There's almost always the karmayoga option - you clean the toilets with your toothbrush and in exchange can participate in the teachings and often get a place to stay. (It's not just a pretty theory - been there, done that. More than once. I'm a university lecturer, and know very well what it means to be perennially penniless.)

I should also add that I'm morbidly allergic to consumerism disguised as Dharma (and anything that smacks of cult mentality, for that matter). Never have I seen anything of the kind in the DC.

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Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:41 pm 
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wisdom wrote:
DAWN wrote:
I think i was shoked because, in my opinion, Dhamma is free, and can not be source of profit, and in what was said by son of Rimpoche, i saw the word "profit".

Also one question, if rDzogchen is a way of Bodhisattvas, and the aim of teching is to free all living beaings before yourself, why teachings of DC of CHHR is so secret and peoples have to pay for their liberation? Liberation is a market? As i know teching of Dzogchen, it teaches something alredy said by Buddha Gotama in DN22 Maha-satipatthana Sutta, and this teaching is free to acces.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

It's difficult to me to understand how Dhamma can be sold. :thinking:

Actualy, if there is some one who take a part in DC, can this person say me, if DC show to Comunity, how money is spend? If DC function like an association or like an enterprise ?


It makes no difference to me personally. Sure I might pay 150$ for a year membership but then I get access to literally every retreat he does and teaches. When you look at most Dharma teachers they charge 25-50$ per day of teaching usually, often adding up to anywhere from 50-150$ for a single weekend. Looked at in this way the DC actually is giving away quite a lot of teachings for very little money in return. There are also many free webcasts that anyone can watch whether they have money or not. So there is a lot of free or very cheap Dharma in the DC.


It's true? :shock:

There is a price of teaching, not a contribution, or donate.
And, actualy, what exactly is sold? Buddha teaching?
Peoples pay for what exactly? Liberation from suffering? So if there is no mo suffering, theachers will not have any money... hmm. :thinking:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
Maybe there's a language issue at work here? I assume the word "profit" in the DC documents DAWN refers to does not carry the same meaning as "profit" in the thinking of a Rockefeller or any contemporary robber baron for that matter.


In this document that i saw, the son of CNNR spoke about money profit, profit from selling of product, and as he said, the most important product is the membership.
He dont use words as teaching or donate or something like that, he spoke about "product", "profit", "shops", "selling", "re-selling" etc... :thinking:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:46 pm 
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treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
I don't know anything about cNN, i've just perused a couple of sites..but it seems like a fair question to me. The organization seems to offer "something for everyone", i'm sure cNN is an amazing, realized teacher but at first glance I have had the exact same reaction the the program, extremely well-marketed, looks like lots of fees, and all kinds of programs so that for instance if you are looking for exercise programs or something similar, there ya go..covered.

Does the organization allow for teachings if one does not have money? For sure it's true that organizations must generate money, I think the sensible thing is just to ask how the money is generated, how it's used, whether there is access when one has no money etc.


As I wrote above, the fees aren't exactly mindblowing when compared to what other Dharma organizations charge. You can access most webcasts (the most essential - which is to say the most important ones) for free - and during webcasts you get all you need to practice literally dozens of secondary practices as well as the primary one. If you pay the yearly memberhip fee, you can watch and replay any webcast you want to. If you can't afford retreats, you can always contact ChNN via mail.

If you're really and truly broke but still interested in some retreat teachings, go to the nearest DC centre and ask. The answer will probably depend on the financial condition of the ling responsible for the event, but it's very unlikely they will tell you to go to hell. There's almost always the karmayoga option - you clean the toilets with your toothbrush and in exchange can participate in the teachings and often get a place to stay. (It's not just a pretty theory - been there, done that. More than once. I'm a university lecturer, and know very well what it means to be perennially penniless.)

I should also add that I'm morbidly allergic to consumerism disguised as Dharma (and anything that smacks of cult mentality, for that matter). Never have I seen anything of the kind in the DC.



I didn't think the 'basic' membership fee was out of hand at all byitself , I think it's less than I donate yearly to either of the places i've attended.

It's more the "one stop shopping" part that threw me for a loop, I think maybe what I was seeing is just an appearance though, things look a certain way on the web, with certain graphics, i'm not forming solid opinions or making judgements by any means, was just wondering.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:49 pm 
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DAWN wrote:
So if there is no more suffering, theachers will not have any money... hmm. :thinking:
If there is no more suffering then there will be no need for people to teach how to overcome suffering, will there? Then we can all retire. Finished! Kaput! Over! That would be just grand. I look forward to that day!

As for what DAWN is saying, it is VERY true that a non-profit organisation should be making a financial statement at the end of ech year. It is a good way to avoid questions like those that DAWN is asking.

I will also verify what others have said here: Basic (ie fundamental) DC teachings are free. (I am not a member)

When ChNN came to Greece I had no money and one of the organisers (who happens to be a Dharma brother of mine) volunteered to pay for me to be able to follow the teachings. Of course this is not always the case, but there are some fabulous people in DC and ChNN really is an amazing teacher (if not everybodys cup of tea).
:namaste:

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