Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

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Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:56 pm

Rakshasa wrote:Do you know why all the Buddhist Tantras show Buddhist gods and goddesses trampling on Hindu gods?
They don't all "show Buddhist gods and goddesses trampling on Hindu gods", as a matter of fact there are many Buddhist Tantric practices of "Hindu" deities: Ganesh, Saraswati, Siva Navaraja, Jambala, Garuda, just to name a few. So feel free to stop pushing your little "anti-Hindu" barrow around Dharma Wheel, or at least put it down and take a rest for a little while.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Hello to all

Postby Rakshasa » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:25 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Rakshasa wrote:Do you know why all the Buddhist Tantras show Buddhist gods and goddesses trampling on Hindu gods?
They don't all "show Buddhist gods and goddesses trampling on Hindu gods", as a matter of fact there are many Buddhist Tantric practices of "Hindu" deities: Ganesh, Saraswati, Siva Navaraja, Jambala, Garuda, just to name a few. So feel free to stop pushing your little "anti-Hindu" barrow around Dharma Wheel, or at least put it down and take a rest for a little while.
:namaste:



I have lived all over in India through out my short life and I was a Hindu till a few years ago. But I have never seen any temple dedicated to Navaraja, Jambala, Garuda or Saraswati. Ganesh is a different thing altogether. And I doubt Buddhist Tantra says that Ganesha is the son of Shiva as in Hinduism.

Hinduism and Buddhism have been inimical most of the times through out their development in India before Hinduism completely appropriated complete Buddhist tantra and defeated it. Read the work of Benyotosh Bhattacharya.
http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT ... I/bhat.htm
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby Jainarayan » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:08 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Rakshasa wrote:Do you know why all the Buddhist Tantras show Buddhist gods and goddesses trampling on Hindu gods?
They don't all "show Buddhist gods and goddesses trampling on Hindu gods", as a matter of fact there are many Buddhist Tantric practices of "Hindu" deities: Ganesh, Saraswati, Siva Navaraja, Jambala, Garuda, just to name a few. So feel free to stop pushing your little "anti-Hindu" barrow around Dharma Wheel, or at least put it down and take a rest for a little while.
:namaste:


If I am not mistaken, is Garuda not associated with Amoghasiddhi? Garuda is the vāhana (vehicle, sorry if people know the terms, I don't mean to be condescending ) of Lord Vishnu. This is why I felt a strange connection between Vishnu and Amoghasiddhi. I know Ganapati (Ganesha) and Saraswati are also venerated in Buddhism.
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Re: Hello to all

Postby Jainarayan » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:18 pm

Rakshasa wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Rakshasa wrote:Do you know why all the Buddhist Tantras show Buddhist gods and goddesses trampling on Hindu gods?
They don't all "show Buddhist gods and goddesses trampling on Hindu gods", as a matter of fact there are many Buddhist Tantric practices of "Hindu" deities: Ganesh, Saraswati, Siva Navaraja, Jambala, Garuda, just to name a few. So feel free to stop pushing your little "anti-Hindu" barrow around Dharma Wheel, or at least put it down and take a rest for a little while.
:namaste:



I have lived all over in India through out my short life and I was a Hindu till a few years ago. But I have never seen any temple dedicated to Navaraja, Jambala, Garuda or Saraswati. Ganesh is a different thing altogether. And I doubt Buddhist Tantra says that Ganesha is the son of Shiva as in Hinduism.



Nataraja is Shiva, Lord of the (Tandava) Dance (dissolution of the universe). Shiva's temples can be found all over India. Garuda is a deity in his own right but he is the vehicle of Vishnu and doesn't, afaik, have any temples dedicated to him. Saraswati has at least one temple; Ustad Allaudin Khan, the guru of Ravi Shankar refused to move for more lucrative offers because he didn't want to leave the area of her temple.
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flawless in manner and intelligent, such one will honor gain. - Digha Nikaya III 273
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby greentara » Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:45 am

Nataraja, the dancing Shiva also represents his five activities: 'Shrishti' (creation, evolution); 'Sthiti' (preservation, support); 'Samhara' (destruction, evolution); 'Tirobhava' (illusion); and 'Anugraha' (release, emancipation, grace).'
Anugraha is grace....and I'm all for grace!
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby Rakshasa » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:47 am

A very long article from Sri Kamakoti Mandali a site by Hindu Tantrics discussing Buddhist Tantric influences (a very politically correct term)
http://www.kamakotimandali.com/misc/bauddhatantra.html

The Hindu deities that are worshiped all over India today are mostly Puranic deities, not Tantric deities with same names - except in places like Assam, Nepal etc. Puranic Hinduism has little to do with Tantra. Actually the usage of the term "Hindu" is problematic and it was used by the non-Hindus like Mughals and Britishers for their convenience, not that of the "Hindus". So being a "Hindu" is as good as being a "religion-ist", which most Christians, Buddhists, Muslims etc are.

If you are interested in Tantra, you should go for Buddhist Tantra, because that is the mother of Hindu tantra anyway.
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Re: Hello to all

Postby Rakshasa » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:52 am

Jainarayan wrote:
Nataraja is Shiva, Lord of the (Tandava) Dance (dissolution of the universe). Shiva's temples can be found all over India. Garuda is a deity in his own right but he is the vehicle of Vishnu and doesn't, afaik, have any temples dedicated to him. Saraswati has at least one temple; Ustad Allaudin Khan, the guru of Ravi Shankar refused to move for more lucrative offers because he didn't want to leave the area of her temple.



Saraswati, the goddess, is mentioned in Lotus Sutra and has a chapter dedicated to her in the Sutra of the Golden Light. In Hinduism, I think "Saraswati" first emerged with the Puranas. Most Puranas are written in medieval times after Buddhism disintegrated to a large extent from India, so it is quite likely that the Saraswati that is popularly worshiped in India, and even as far as Japan, was probably a Buddhist Goddess.
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:56 am

"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:58 am

Rakshasa, you may be unaware of this, but the title of the thread is SHARED Deities in...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby plwk » Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:02 pm

Image
Here's on Vinayaka and gang here and here, troublesome & malevolent with the looks of Ganesh which Hindus also seem to mention? To borrow a quote from Wiki-la...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinayakas
The Vināyakas were a group of four troublesome demons who created obstacles and difficulties in Hindu mythology, but who were easily propitiated.
One theory of the origin of Ganesha is that he gradually came to prominence in connection with the Vināyakas.

In Puranic literature of a much later period the group of four Vināyakas was merged into one definite god named Vināyaka whom Rudra appointed as the "Leader of the Ganas" (Ganapati). This Vināyaka-Ganapati is associated with another god called Dantin, "the one with the tusk," who is said to possess a twisted trunk (vakratuṇḍa) and who holds a corn-sheaf, a sugar cane, and a club. This description of Dantin is so characteristic of the Puranic Ganapati that Heras says "we cannot resist to accept his full identification with this Vedic Dantin." The name Vināyaka is a common name for Ganesha both in the Purāṇas and in Buddhist Tantras.

In the Smrti of Yājñavalkya, written in the 6th century, Vināyaka is definitely mentioned as a demon who had been exalted to the rank of a deva. He is clearly described as elephant-headed by the 8th century...

There was a thread back some weeks ago where there was a mention of not confusing worldly deities with those in Buddhist Tantra?
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby Jainarayan » Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:58 pm

greentara wrote:Nataraja, the dancing Shiva also represents his five activities: 'Shrishti' (creation, evolution); 'Sthiti' (preservation, support); 'Samhara' (destruction, evolution); 'Tirobhava' (illusion); and 'Anugraha' (release, emancipation, grace).'
Anugraha is grace....and I'm all for grace!


Yes, he indeed does. The common misperception is that he is the "god of destruction", i.e. wanton, frenzied destruction. Not so. As you said evolution. As well as dissolution of the old and worn out, making way for the new.

I'm in the minority belief that Vishnu and Shiva are flip sides of the same coin, called Harihara or Shankarnarayana. The Skanda Purāna says Śivasya hridayam Vishnur Vishnoscha hridayam Śivah... "Vishnu is the heart of Shiva and Shiva is the heart of Vishnu". But I digress. :oops:
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby Karma Gendun » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:50 pm

Some Hindus deities are worldly gods, but were taught by Buddha and now help protect the dharma.
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby Jainarayan » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:41 pm

Hinduism today is primarily Puranic, v. the original Vedic religion. Vishnu is named 93 times in the Vedas, but there is the Vishnu Purana & Srimad Bhagavatam, & Garuda Purana. Just some tidbits of info. : )
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby rob h » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:00 pm

I like to think of Vajrayogini and Kali as sisters. There's maybe quite a few real connections between them both if you go to the roots of their histories.
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Re: Hello to all

Postby Jainarayan » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:39 pm

Rakshasa wrote: so it is quite likely that the Saraswati that is popularly worshiped in India, and even as far as Japan, was probably a Buddhist Goddess.


I'm not so sure about that; I think Goddess Saraswati is far older. The name Saraswati for the "mythical" river is mentioned in early Vedic texts and already personified as a goddess. But the river is not so "mythical" (hence the " marks): satellite images show the course of a dried river bed that is just about where the Saraswati should be (Hairovati in Old Persian, with the regular s-h sound shift). The river's course changed, then dried up completely after a major climatic shift at about the same time as the end of the IVC, which iirc was around 1700-1500 BCE. The culture moved east towards the Ganges and Gangetic plains. But I'm no Indologist or Vedic scholar.
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby Jainarayan » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:43 pm

rob h wrote:I like to think of Vajrayogini and Kali as sisters. There's maybe quite a few real connections between them both if you go to the roots of their histories.


As I've read there are with Durga and Tara. Personally I think there's a lot of borrowing and translating, morphing and transmuting of deities both ways. None of the south and east Asian religions appeared and grew up in a vacuum. Even Zoroastrianism has some Vedic roots and influences.
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby NIRMAL2 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:06 pm

It is only in human nature that you belong to this religion and I to that, but it is not the deities' nature to belong to one religion and not another.
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Re: Hello to all

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:49 pm

Rakshasa wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Rakshasa wrote:Do you know why all the Buddhist Tantras show Buddhist gods and goddesses trampling on Hindu gods?
They don't all "show Buddhist gods and goddesses trampling on Hindu gods", as a matter of fact there are many Buddhist Tantric practices of "Hindu" deities: Ganesh, Saraswati, Siva Navaraja, Jambala, Garuda, just to name a few. So feel free to stop pushing your little "anti-Hindu" barrow around Dharma Wheel, or at least put it down and take a rest for a little while.
:namaste:



I have lived all over in India through out my short life and I was a Hindu till a few years ago. But I have never seen any temple dedicated to Navaraja, Jambala, Garuda or Saraswati. Ganesh is a different thing altogether. And I doubt Buddhist Tantra says that Ganesha is the son of Shiva as in Hinduism.

Hinduism and Buddhism have been inimical most of the times through out their development in India before Hinduism completely appropriated complete Buddhist tantra and defeated it. Read the work of Benyotosh Bhattacharya.
http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT ... I/bhat.htm


Ahem
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
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Re: Shared Deities in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra

Postby greentara » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:02 am

The Maha Kumb Mela is on in Allahabad right now. Proberbly attracting a massive 60 million people plus. This is truely amazing place to see the heads of mutts, Naga babas, the sadhus leaving temples and caves from all over India and Nepal. Many of the sadhus are tantric practitioners. Millions of villagers on pilgrimage to the mela. The faith and fervour know no bounds.
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