How is it possible to validate one's own experience of insight, to decide that a given meditation experience is "real" rather than fanciful? I know the simple answer here is to ask a teacher, but i'm wondering outside of that simple answer. Should we trust our intuition, and to what degree?
Additionally, can these experiences be correctly remembered and described, or does that act alter them to the point that they are not the same animal?
Can genuine insight be remembered, or only experienced?
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Can genuine insight be remembered, or only experienced?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Can genuine insight be remembered, or only experienced?
Genuine insight changes you although the change may be too subtle for others to see. Genuine insight is also "permanent" - according to the sutras and tantras this is *NOT* actually the case but they are talking from lifetime to lifetime. Genuine insight does change you in this lifetime but until you reach the 1st bhumi, you can always regress (this is the point about the sutras and tantras I was making above). In fact until you reach the 8th bhumi in some teachings you can regress (Sakya always says 1st bhumi but both teachings may be true because they are talking about different things). HHDL says that meditative insight is permanent from lifetime to lifetime which is why he wants everyone to study "philosophy" - because you then take that into analytic meditation and gradually deepen realization on universal lovingkindness and compassion as a start.Johnny Dangerous wrote:How is it possible to validate one's own experience of insight, to decide that a given meditation experience is "real" rather than fanciful? I know the simple answer here is to ask a teacher, but i'm wondering outside of that simple answer. Should we trust our intuition, and to what degree?
However meditative insight is also dependent upon one's view. If one is a kind of theist, then you get a kind of theist insight. It's still valid but it's valid in their view and experience. Sometimes however people can get meditative insight and go off the deep end which is why we need to check our insight with teachers.
Genuine insight takes a while to digest. It can be remembered and remembered correctly but that is not the same thing as the experience itself (so they are not the same animal). And the actual realization is also not the experience of the insight. The insight occurs and you know it but you don't necessarily really know what the insight actually is (an idea suggests itself and this begins the process which can take a while). The actual experience of the insight could be a peak experience but that itself is not the actual insight or the realization (realization in these terms is sort of the digestion of the actual insight).Johnny Dangerous wrote:Additionally, can these experiences be correctly remembered and described, or does that act alter them to the point that they are not the same animal?
The insight itself may be very minor but can have far reaching consequences: something like "Oh I better not intentionally kill insects" or "I shouldn't physically harm beings". Both of these can be found in society (as well as the much stronger societal directive to kill insects or to physically harm beings) but the insight that these are true arises internally and is self-confirmatory. This self-confirmatory characteristic is why people can go off the deep end too. The self validation is correct but may need to be tempered.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Can genuine insight be remembered, or only experienced?
a valid perception of an object functions to remove false thoughts and impositions we can place on that object.Johnny Dangerous wrote:How is it possible to validate one's own experience of insight, to decide that a given meditation experience is "real" rather than fanciful? I know the simple answer here is to ask a teacher, but i'm wondering outside of that simple answer. Should we trust our intuition, and to what degree?
Additionally, can these experiences be correctly remembered and described, or does that act alter them to the point that they are not the same animal?
it is simple to have a valid cognition with sensory consciousnesses ie. blob of white that represents a car but very difficult to have a meaningful valid cognition with the mental consciousness ie. does the car exist the way it appears, what exactly is a car, etc.
so, the more authoritative the valid cognition the greater the lack of doubt, confusion, naivety, etc. already by the time of real inference of thing there is a great reduction in doubt etc. obviously by the time of fullblown insight there is absolutely no doubt, confusion, etc with respect to that object
yes they can be clearly remembered, though not as authoritatively as fullblown valid cognition which is nonconceptual, and until permanent cessation with respect to something is reached insight must necessarily gradually decline
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Re: Can genuine insight be remembered, or only experienced?
Whaat?5heaps wrote:until permanent cessation with respect to something is reached insight must necessarily gradually decline
you wore out your welcome with random precision {Pink Floyd}
Re: Can genuine insight be remembered, or only experienced?
The test is how much these experiences reduce your egotism.Johnny Dangerous wrote:How is it possible to validate one's own experience of insight, to decide that a given meditation experience is "real" rather than fanciful?
Yes they can be remembered. But clinging to the experiences diminishes them.Johnny Dangerous wrote:Additionally, can these experiences be correctly remembered and described, or does that act alter them to the point that they are not the same animal?
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
- Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Can genuine insight be remembered, or only experienced?
Thanks all, that hits home Jinzang.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Can genuine insight be remembered, or only experienced?
I think you will find that they are trying to say that unless you completely erradicate the root of deisre (let's say) then any insight gained will gradually fade away or decline as new instances of desire leave their mark on consciousness. Metaphorically speaking: the mirror will get covered by dust again.undefineable wrote:Whaat?5heaps wrote:until permanent cessation with respect to something is reached insight must necessarily gradually decline
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Can genuine insight be remembered, or only experienced?
That makes sense - After all, 'insight' in its weaker forms (inspiration etc.) is something that the most 'un-enlightened' people have been known to make lifetime careers of suffering (amongst other by-products) out of, e.g. (a bit new-agey but you get the drift):gregkavarnos wrote:I think you will find that they are trying to say that unless you completely erradicate the root of deisre (let's say) then any insight gained will gradually fade away or decline as new instances of desire leave their mark on consciousness. Metaphorically speaking: the mirror will get covered by dust again.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3WE1 ... &lpg=PA355&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
you wore out your welcome with random precision {Pink Floyd}