Johnny Dangerous wrote:But yes, unfortunately the marketplace largely determines the direction of popular expressions of Dharma. Sucks, but there ya go.
That said, it seems like there was some unhealthy stuff regarding money already going in Buddhism - I don't think that laypeople "generating merit" by simply supporting monks (rather than actually practicing the Dharma) is a modern thing.
Huseng wrote:Johnny Dangerous wrote:But yes, unfortunately the marketplace largely determines the direction of popular expressions of Dharma. Sucks, but there ya go.
Well, at least we recognize the existence of the problem.That said, it seems like there was some unhealthy stuff regarding money already going in Buddhism - I don't think that laypeople "generating merit" by simply supporting monks (rather than actually practicing the Dharma) is a modern thing.
There is a big difference though between the wealth generated by predominately agricultural societies and that of industrial-capitalist ones.
Once you factor in the fact that money now is fiat and not reflective of actual goods and services or even precious metals, then these arbitrary tokens we call money (now largely digital and holding value only because of mutual agreement) are utterly illusory and based largely on lies, violence and tribute. The financial sector of the global economy generates vast amounts of hallucinated wealth through debt, which at the end of the day hurts working class people the most.
So, it begs the question of how ethical it is for Buddhist institutions to seek to acquire such hallucinated forms of wealth. On one hand, you need your fiat money to run your operation, but on the other hand it is really really dirty.
Huseng wrote: What I mean here is that a lot of Buddhist thought, activities and written works are crafted with the market in mind rather than with strictly spiritual concerns.
Ukigumo wrote:I think a Buddhist response should be twofold; first of all I think trying to make Buddhist institutions more self sufficient and less dependent on the larger economy is essential. The ideals of a place like Antaiji may be instructive in this regard.
Secondly, I think Buddhists and lay Buddhists in particular should participate in movements that seek to create new ways of being in the world.
Nosta wrote:I even think that its easy to see when you are facing garbage. When i read the writings/books of a good master there is an HUGE difference when i read garbage. Real writings from real masters have something really fresh. Sometimes i can really feel like fresh air in my mind just by reading them.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Huseng wrote:So, it begs the question of how ethical it is for Buddhist institutions to seek to acquire such hallucinated forms of wealth. On one hand, you need your fiat money to run your operation, but on the other hand it is really really dirty.
This is true of anything though, our economy is pretty much usury-based these days lol. Best institutions can do is have some sort of limit in their own by laws whereby whatever moneys are received and used equitably, and for "real" Dharma, however that gets defined. An institution can only remove itself from Wrong Livelihood by so many degrees, at a point it is no longer possible.
Huseng wrote:Johnny Dangerous wrote:Huseng wrote:So, it begs the question of how ethical it is for Buddhist institutions to seek to acquire such hallucinated forms of wealth. On one hand, you need your fiat money to run your operation, but on the other hand it is really really dirty.
This is true of anything though, our economy is pretty much usury-based these days lol. Best institutions can do is have some sort of limit in their own by laws whereby whatever moneys are received and used equitably, and for "real" Dharma, however that gets defined. An institution can only remove itself from Wrong Livelihood by so many degrees, at a point it is no longer possible.
The thing is I don't know how many Buddhist organizations really recognize the vile nature of our global economy. If you depend on the system for your prosperity, you might be hesitant to openly say that fiat currency is a big sham and money is generated through usury and exploitation. I think a higher level of morality would dictate that one admit money is a necessary evil rather than call it a reflection of one's merit and thus cast it in a positive light. The other thing is that by casting money into a positive light you discourage people from simple living and abandoning ordinary lifestyles (home ownership, debt, career and so on), which only entraps them.
greentara wrote:johnny, I get your drift. The question of money is an interesting one. Some of the great Hindu sages refused to touch money. I believe buddhist monks do not handle money. Years ago an Indian 'Baba' I knew worked in a bank for awhile, His acquaintances sneered behind his back 'Oh he handles money'! How times have changed, people have become so materialistic, that now it wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

Astus wrote:Huseng,
It is an interesting mixture of socialist and romantic ideas. Because there is exploitation of the working class and the natural resources, Buddhists should return to a pre-modern state. Should Buddhists live like the Amish? That is quitting society and not liberating beings. Isn't there a bodhisattva in the marketplace as the perfect embodiment of Mahayana? The "dirt of the world" is not something outside to avoid. Commodification can be another term for skilful means. Buddhism must be meaningful in order to reach the people.
Huseng wrote:Why is it always one perceived extreme to another?
I'm saying recognize the dirty money for what it is and be open about it.
Recognizing one's own necessary evils does not necessitate taking extreme measures.