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 Post subject: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:15 am 
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I found this forum through a Google search because I have some questions about Vajrayana.

I am a 55 year old Italian-American (male) convert to Hinduism, Vaishnavism to be precise (worship of Vishnu/Krishna). I have discovered and am drawn to elements of Vajrayana Buddhism that I think mesh nicely with my personality, goals, beliefs. etc. I've been told that my form of practice is tantric. Everything I do, I attempt to do in God's name and service. Excuse me if I'm not using the right words to get my point across; you'll get it.

Here is a rundown of my beliefs:

1. Vishnu/Krishna (one and the same) are God to me. I'm one of those Vaishnavas who believe Vishnu took birth as the Buddha because things in Hinduism at the time were going down the drain and needed changing, much as Jesus did with the Judaism of his day. In fact, there is a verse in the Bhagavad Gita where Sri Krishna makes a comment that seems to pave the way for reform, for the arrival of the Buddha, who would be His next incarnation. Strange, huh!?

2. I fully believe that the buddhas and bodhisattvas are as real as real can be. I'm pretty much a henotheist. I see the buddhas and bodhisattvas as either deities and entities in and of themselves, or aspects of Vishnu who to my mind is showing me more expansions. Especially in the forms of the bodhisattvas of compassion, wisdom, fearlessness, etc.

3. My desire is, as is the motto of many police departments: "to protect and serve". I am willing to forgo moksha and be re-born in order to become more and more enlightened to help other beings. And not necessarily on a spiritual level; I'd be willng to be reborn "to protect and serve" physically if I earned the merit. This flies in the face of archetypal Hinduism, but I believe that Lord Krishna would permit this to be done in His name and service.

I seem to be drawn to Amoghasiddhi. In a really strange coincidence, as I began exploring Vajrayana, I came across a double dorje, a bell and a small bronze statue of him and Tara. I thought it was a sign of some sort. I've added them, Guanyin, Manjusri, and several of the buddhas to my shrine. Currently my sadhana only entails prayers and meditations (japa on a mala to Vishnu), offerings to the Hindu deities, buddhas and bodhisattvas (light, incense, water, sweets).

Some questions I have is how do I meditate on Amoghasiddhi? That is, do I do mala japa with Om Amoghasiddhi Ah Hum, or so I simply meditate on him, do I hold the dorje and bell? Do I need initiation for this? Will this all really mesh with my Hindu practice?

Any and all advice is welcome. I don't want to do anything that is in conflict or just plain wrong.

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flawless in manner and intelligent, such one will honor gain. - Digha Nikaya III 273


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:08 am 
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Hi Jainarayan, welcome to the forum.

I'm curious about your first point, what reforms do you see Buddha as implementing which still somehow remain within the Hindu framework of ātman?

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:09 am 
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Jainarayan wrote:
I found this forum through a Google search because I have some questions about Vajrayana.

I am a 55 year old Italian-American (male) convert to Hinduism, Vaishnavism to be precise (worship of Vishnu/Krishna). I have discovered and am drawn to elements of Vajrayana Buddhism that I think mesh nicely with my personality, goals, beliefs. etc. I've been told that my form of practice is tantric. Everything I do, I attempt to do in God's name and service. Excuse me if I'm not using the right words to get my point across; you'll get it.

Here is a rundown of my beliefs:

1. Vishnu/Krishna (one and the same) are God to me. I'm one of those Vaishnavas who believe Vishnu took birth as the Buddha because things in Hinduism at the time were going down the drain and needed changing, much as Jesus did with the Judaism of his day. In fact, there is a verse in the Bhagavad Gita where Sri Krishna makes a comment that seems to pave the way for reform, for the arrival of the Buddha, who would be His next incarnation. Strange, huh!?

2. I fully believe that the buddhas and bodhisattvas are as real as real can be. I'm pretty much a henotheist. I see the buddhas and bodhisattvas as either deities and entities in and of themselves, or aspects of Vishnu who to my mind is showing me more expansions. Especially in the forms of the bodhisattvas of compassion, wisdom, fearlessness, etc.

3. My desire is, as is the motto of many police departments: "to protect and serve". I am willing to forgo moksha and be re-born in order to become more and more enlightened to help other beings. And not necessarily on a spiritual level; I'd be willng to be reborn "to protect and serve" physically if I earned the merit. This flies in the face of archetypal Hinduism, but I believe that Lord Krishna would permit this to be done in His name and service.

I seem to be drawn to Amoghasiddhi. In a really strange coincidence, as I began exploring Vajrayana, I came across a double dorje, a bell and a small bronze statue of him and Tara. I thought it was a sign of some sort. I've added them, Guanyin, Manjusri, and several of the buddhas to my shrine. Currently my sadhana only entails prayers and meditations (japa on a mala to Vishnu), offerings to the Hindu deities, buddhas and bodhisattvas (light, incense, water, sweets).

Some questions I have is how do I meditate on Amoghasiddhi? That is, do I do mala japa with Om Amoghasiddhi Ah Hum, or so I simply meditate on him, do I hold the dorje and bell? Do I need initiation for this? Will this all really mesh with my Hindu practice?

Any and all advice is welcome. I don't want to do anything that is in conflict or just plain wrong.


Fascinating.If you were a Buddhist, advice would be easy. First take refuge, then find a teacher, learn, and take whatever empowerments you need to practice as you wish. However, taking refuge may not be something you want to do as a Hindu. That would prevent you from taking empowerents and thus you would be prevented from performing the higher tantric practices.

Now, this isn't just a rule some dork made up to keep the Hindus out. Empowerments are there as a sort of check that the student knows what he is doing, because the higher empowerments entail a certain amount of risk for the untaught. They can be mis-handled and it is the teacher's duty to see that the student is forewarned and fore-armed. Basically, if you do the practices wrong, you can flip out, go on ego trips and so on.

Then again, Buddhist rules don't apply to Hindus, do they? So I suppose you can take you chances if you wish to.

There do exist several sadhanas that do not require empowerments, although refuge is presumed. So you can lessen the risk by doing the simplest versions of Green Tara, Avalokiteshvra and Medicine Buddha. Or you can simply incorporate Buddhist figures into your existing Hindu practices using the Hindu ground rules. I am sure Green Tara and the others would be happy to help you on your way in any way they can.

I think you're ok having a dorje and bell on your shrine, but I would advise against trying to use them as anything other than decorations. That's high tantra stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:27 am 
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Thanks. :smile:

Well, the reforms I refer to are that the Vedas had become an end in themselves. They became mindlessly ritualistic. The brahmins lost site of what the Vedas were.

Something His Holiness the Dalai Lama said was
Quote:
According to the theory of emptiness, any belief in an objective reality grounded in the assumption of intrinsic, independent existence is simply untenable.
All things and events, whether ‘material’, mental or even abstract concepts like time, are devoid of objective, independent existence [...] [T]hings and events are 'empty' in that they can never possess any immutable essence, intrinsic reality or absolute ‘being’ that affords independence.[50]
That's pretty much the Advaita ātman. In Advaita, ātman is the only thing that exists. Nothing else exists in and of or by itself. Could that be called Śūnyatā? I think it's a matter of terminology, though I could be wrong.

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flawless in manner and intelligent, such one will honor gain. - Digha Nikaya III 273


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:35 am 
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Jainarayan wrote:
Thanks. :smile:

Well, the reforms I refer to are that the Vedas had become an end in themselves. They became mindlessly ritualistic. The brahmins lost site of what the Vedas were.

Something His Holiness the Dalai Lama said was
Quote:
According to the theory of emptiness, any belief in an objective reality grounded in the assumption of intrinsic, independent existence is simply untenable.
All things and events, whether ‘material’, mental or even abstract concepts like time, are devoid of objective, independent existence [...] [T]hings and events are 'empty' in that they can never possess any immutable essence, intrinsic reality or absolute ‘being’ that affords independence.[50]
That's pretty much the Advaita ātman. In Advaita, ātman is the only thing that exists. Nothing else exists in and of or by itself. Could that be called Śūnyatā? I think it's a matter of terminology, though I could be wrong.


You've hit on the fundamental difference between Hinduism and Buddhism. Buddha taught anatman, in other words he taught the exact opposite of the atman doctrine. You might say he taught that atman is as empty as anything else, maybe even outright nonexistent. But I'm not the expert on this sort of thing around here. I'm just trying to hold the fort until someone more knowledgeable comes along.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:48 am 
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Hi catmoon. thanks for the info, it's what I'm looking for. :)

catmoon wrote:
Fascinating.If you were a Buddhist, advice would be easy. First take refuge, then find a teacher, learn, and take whatever empowerments you need to practice as you wish. However, taking refuge may not be something you want to do as a Hindu. That would prevent you from taking empowerents and thus you would be prevented from performing the higher tantric practices.

Now, this isn't just a rule some dork made up to keep the Hindus out. Empowerments are there as a sort of check that the student knows what he is doing, because the higher empowerments entail a certain amount of risk for the untaught. They can be mis-handled and it is the teacher's duty to see that the student is forewarned and fore-armed. Basically, if you do the practices wrong, you can flip out, go on ego trips and so on.

Then again, Buddhist rules don't apply to Hindus, do they? So I suppose you can take you chances if you wish to.


Hindus also stress taking initiation from gurus before using certain mantras. In fact, a mantra is given to a student specific to that student, and should be revealed to no one. For example because I am not initiated by a guru, certain mantras I would use are said to have absolutely no benefit. I suppose empowerment and initiation are not dissimilar, the goal being to keep the student on the right path. I did read somewhere that if one's motivation is not right, things can go really wrong.

Quote:
There do exist several sadhanas that do not require empowerments, although refuge is presumed. So you can lessen the risk by doing the simplest versions of Green Tara, Avalokiteshvra and Medicine Buddha. Or you can simply incorporate Buddhist figures into your existing Hindu practices using the Hindu ground rules. I am sure Green Tara and the others would be happy to help you on your way in any way they can.


Sure, I don't see that as a problem either if that's the way to go. Krishna says that if one chooses to worship a particular deity or worship in a particular way he will make that devotee's faith steadfast. All the deities are willing to help. I have some of the simple prayers to Avalokiteshvara, the abbreviated 21 Taras, some prayers to Shakyamuni Buddha asking for help in enlightenment. I have a beautiful 4x6" Om Mani Padme Hum print I am going to frame. The lotus is sacred in Hinduism also. Hinduism, whether some Hindus want to admit it or not, is very syncretic and universalist (think of Swami Vivekananda and Paramahansa Yogananda).

Quote:
I think you're ok having a dorje and bell on your shrine, but I would advise against trying to use them as anything other than decorations. That's high tantra stuff.


Wow, that's interesting. Though bells are used in Hindu pujas also... extensively! I have a tiny brass bell I used to use, but then I got a larger Tibetan bell. I hope the bell is all right to use (I love the sound).

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Worthy, wise and virtuous: Who is energetic and not indolent, in misfortune unshaken,
flawless in manner and intelligent, such one will honor gain. - Digha Nikaya III 273


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:45 am 
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catmoon wrote:
Jainarayan wrote:
Thanks. :smile:

Well, the reforms I refer to are that the Vedas had become an end in themselves. They became mindlessly ritualistic. The brahmins lost site of what the Vedas were.

Something His Holiness the Dalai Lama said was
Quote:
According to the theory of emptiness, any belief in an objective reality grounded in the assumption of intrinsic, independent existence is simply untenable.
All things and events, whether ‘material’, mental or even abstract concepts like time, are devoid of objective, independent existence [...] [T]hings and events are 'empty' in that they can never possess any immutable essence, intrinsic reality or absolute ‘being’ that affords independence.[50]
That's pretty much the Advaita ātman. In Advaita, ātman is the only thing that exists. Nothing else exists in and of or by itself. Could that be called Śūnyatā? I think it's a matter of terminology, though I could be wrong.


You've hit on the fundamental difference between Hinduism and Buddhism. Buddha taught anatman, in other words he taught the exact opposite of the atman doctrine. You might say he taught that atman is as empty as anything else, maybe even outright nonexistent. But I'm not the expert on this sort of thing around here. I'm just trying to hold the fort until someone more knowledgeable comes along.


This is basically correct, although I'm not sure it's the "exact opposite", maybe more like a mirror inversion. The ultimate in Buddhism is utterly ungraspable by thought, so any reference to the idea of existing or not is inadequate to the task, and is also a bit misleading as the focus is not about what is truly "out there" but rather on the necessary processes of mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:43 am 
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I may not be the most qualified to give advice, but i'd really recommend reading up on the basics of Buddhism and figuring out where you stand before trying Tantra..namely the places where it is going to differ from Hinduism - anatta/sunyata is a good starting place, and will lead you to the crux of things. From here read up on dependent origination, as this will also be different - dependent origination connotes among other things that there can be no "effectless cause" or first cause of the sort that is usually referred to as God, so big difference there.

Just my own experience, but as a long time Buddhist, the first time I tried it out and did a Chenrezig Sadhana with a group it was like getting hit with lighting, very intense. This is a publicly accessible group practice, requiring no initiation, and I am someone whose views are already "sorted" in that beyond the normal level of doubt that I work against, I believe in the underlying philosophy and worldview of Buddhism with no qualms..it doesn't seem like a good idea to mess with something as direct as this without the basic beliefs being in place.

The Tantra stuff is inseparable from Buddhist philosophy...for instance sunyata/emptiness plays a big part in the visualization of Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvara. If you don't "believe" in emptiness, or you try to substitute it with Atman or something similar the entire Sadhana wouldn't even make sense, all the sadhanas I have seen, including the one done at the center I attend make specific note of emptiness, and some even include a period of meditation on emptiness.

So yeah, read some Sutra, commentary, whatever on emptiness/egolessness before jumping in, this is a core belief of Buddhism and if it doesn't sit with you, not sure how well Buddhist practice is going to work. I'd reccomend starting with Turning The Wheel of Dharma or something similar as even though it's the Pali Cannon, it is kind of "the basics" for Buddhism in general.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html
or try

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

or some Nagarjuna

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/nagarjuna.pdf

and to top it off The Heart Sutra

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/heartstr.htm


Whatever the case, good luck and heaps o merit in whatever you do! I often find myself attracted to Hindu mantra, so I suppose i've been in the opposite shoes!

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Jainarayan wrote:

Wow, that's interesting. Though bells are used in Hindu pujas also... extensively! I have a tiny brass bell I used to use, but then I got a larger Tibetan bell. I hope the bell is all right to use (I love the sound).


Ha I never thought of that... what if you just use it as a bell? That should be fine. It's about intention.

I was thinking more of using the bell in tantric pujas... not something I'd recommend without empowerment. I'm just following my intuition here, it's not like i know.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:50 pm 
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:anjali:

futerko wrote:
This is basically correct, although I'm not sure it's the "exact opposite", maybe more like a mirror inversion. The ultimate in Buddhism is utterly ungraspable by thought, so any reference to the idea of existing or not is inadequate to the task, and is also a bit misleading as the focus is not about what is truly "out there" but rather on the necessary processes of mind.


That's the same exact philosophy with regard to Brahman. When Brahman is attempted to be understood by the mind, through the veil of maya, It appears as Ishvara... God. The mind cannot conceive of it. I think the best term is 'ineffable'. This is why students of Advaita are also strongly urged to seek a satguru. I don't want anyone to think I came here with an agenda, except to have my questions answered. And they certainly are. :smile: It does seem there are more of those mirror inversions than opposites, regarding the philosophy. It seems to come down to the fundamentals of ahimsa, the yama and niyamas in Hinduism (the do's and don'ts to live a spiritual life), the Eightfold Path, the Six Perfections and the Five Precepts, etc. They all have the same roots, along with Jainism and Sikhism. But again, I don't want to digress away from my issue. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:57 pm 
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You are trying to meld two things together that are not compatible. I here Dzogchen is open to all so it might be good for you to investigate that. :namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
I may not be the most qualified to give advice, but i'd really recommend reading up on the basics of Buddhism and figuring out where you stand before trying Tantra..namely the places where it is going to differ from Hinduism - anatta/sunyata is a good starting place, and will lead you to the crux of things. From here read up on dependent origination, as this will also be different - dependent origination connotes among other things that there can be no "effectless cause" or first cause of the sort that is usually referred to as God, so big difference there.


I picked up the series of books by Vessantara (Tony McMahon): A Guide to the Deities of the Tantra, A Guide to the Buddhas, and A Guide to the Bodhisattvas thinking they might help me understand. Maybe they should go back to the store. But on the other hand, maybe they might be good additions to my collection just for education.

I am reading The Path of Ecstacy by George Feuerstein. It is a book on tantra, but Hindu tantra, with some respectful nods to Vajrayana. It seems that Hindu tantra may be quite different from Vajrayana tantra. He says that Hinduism today is pretty much tantric. It changed to tantric when Vedic rituals were abandoned in favor of deity puja and puranic Hinduism.

Quote:
Just my own experience, but as a long time Buddhist, the first time I tried it out and did a Chenrezig Sadhana with a group it was like getting hit with lighting, very intense. This is a publicly accessible group practice, requiring no initiation, and I am someone whose views are already "sorted" in that beyond the normal level of doubt that I work against, I believe in the underlying philosophy and worldview of Buddhism with no qualms..it doesn't seem like a good idea to mess with something as direct as this without the basic beliefs being in place.


This is beginning to sound like something I don't want to tinker with.

Quote:
The Tantra stuff is inseparable from Buddhist philosophy...for instance sunyata/emptiness plays a big part in the visualization of Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvara. If you don't "believe" in emptiness, or you try to substitute it with Atman or something similar the entire Sadhana wouldn't even make sense, all the sadhanas I have seen, including the one done at the center I attend make specific note of emptiness, and some even include a period of meditation on emptiness.

So yeah, read some Sutra, commentary, whatever on emptiness/egolessness before jumping in, this is a core belief of Buddhism and if it doesn't sit with you, not sure how well Buddhist practice is going to work. I'd reccomend starting with Turning The Wheel of Dharma or something similar as even though it's the Pali Cannon, it is kind of "the basics" for Buddhism in general.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html
or try

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

or some Nagarjuna

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/nagarjuna.pdf

and to top it off The Heart Sutra

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/heartstr.htm


I have copies of the Heart, Lotus and Diamond Sutras, the Dhammapada, the Teachings of The Buddha, and some writings by the Dalai Lama. I have a backlog of reading, but I've been told that they are good to read regardless of one's practice.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:08 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:09 pm 
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catmoon wrote:
Jainarayan wrote:

Wow, that's interesting. Though bells are used in Hindu pujas also... extensively! I have a tiny brass bell I used to use, but then I got a larger Tibetan bell. I hope the bell is all right to use (I love the sound).


Ha I never thought of that... what if you just use it as a bell? That should be fine. It's about intention.

I was thinking more of using the bell in tantric pujas... not something I'd recommend without empowerment. I'm just following my intuition here, it's not like i know.


Thanks. I ordered it from Rudra Centre in India. They are a mostly Shaiva Hindu organization, so I was surprised to see them offer a Tibetan bell. This is it http://www.rudraksha-ratna.com/dispProd ... prodId=966. I can write to them to ask them about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Jainarayan wrote:
:anjali:

futerko wrote:
This is basically correct, although I'm not sure it's the "exact opposite", maybe more like a mirror inversion. The ultimate in Buddhism is utterly ungraspable by thought, so any reference to the idea of existing or not is inadequate to the task, and is also a bit misleading as the focus is not about what is truly "out there" but rather on the necessary processes of mind.


That's the same exact philosophy with regard to Brahman. When Brahman is attempted to be understood by the mind, through the veil of maya, It appears as Ishvara... God. The mind cannot conceive of it. I think the best term is 'ineffable'.


Yes, I thought that was the case... this is why in Buddhism we refrain from saying that, "ātman is the only thing that exists. Nothing else exists in and of or by itself." - because it expresses the idea as if it were graspable by ordinary thought.

best wishes :namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Caz wrote:
You are trying to meld two things together that are not compatible. I here Dzogchen is open to all so it might be good for you to investigate that. :namaste:


Thanks. I don't want to force anything, or am "seeking". This all started because someone suggested that deity yoga would be a way for a closer connection to Krishna/Vishnu. Then it expanded and took on a life of its own because of my feelings of compassion, the bodhisattva vow and bodhicitta. Heck, I cry when I see ASPCA commercials on tv; it's a knife in my heart to see ill, frail and elderly people, people who are struggling, homeless... you know the drill. So that's how it started and seemed a good path. But sometimes things are not what they seem.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:11 pm 
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I'm not trying to discourage you from trying it, don't wanna give that impression. It seems like you should go to a center and try a group puja if you are going to try it out though, especially being that you don't know where you stand regarding the philosophy. I'm sure no one will ask you your beliefs at the door lol, I know i've seen Christians and others show up at group practices. I'm just saying caution might be warranted as (in my limited experience) the Deity yoga for me at least is really intense and it revolves partially around ideas that might be somewhat antithetical to Hinduism. Every center i've seen does a public Chenrezig and Green Tara service with no requirement for empowerment.

That said, I know there are some folks out there who subscribe to the idea that Advaita ideas and Buddhism are no different in the end, and there are unorthodox "true self" leaning forms of Buddhism too...so don't let my biases scare you away by any means.

BTW if you have access to A Profound Mind by HHDL, there are whole chapters there that are really pertinent to the concepts of sunyata, dependent origination and go into detail on the Mahayana views. I put the links I did because they are pretty short with the exception of the Nagajuna PDF and might give you some idea of where the philosophy is markedly different than one that is based on Atman, and different ideas about causality.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:36 pm 
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Location: New Jersey, USA
I understand perfectly. There are a few centers in NJ, but they are not very close, even for NJ being so small. I did think about going, and may still, if for education's sake only. I read that Green Tara is simply another manifestation of Mother Goddess, whom we worship in many forms to begin with... Kali, Durga, Lakshmi, Saraswati, Gayatri, et. al. I've been doing some thinking and meditating on it and realized that my deity yoga should be on Vishnu. As catmoon said "Or you can simply incorporate Buddhist figures into your existing Hindu practices using the Hindu ground rules. I am sure Green Tara and the others would be happy to help you on your way in any way they can." Hindus worship God(dess) in multiple forms anyway. At the temple I go to there are at least 3 representations of Vishnu; 3 or 4 of Shiva; 4 or 5 of Goddess. Something for everyone. What drew me to Buddhism is the compassion aspect of the buddhas and bodhisattvas. Hinduism and its deities show compassion and the way to moksha one way, but the bodhisattvas and buddhas show compassion and enlightenment another way. So in that regard, I can certainly incorporate their aspects and prayers to them into Hindu sadhana and puja. And it would not be going into uncharted territory that may very well conflict with my core beliefs. The fringe beliefs seem compatible, but not the core... "You cannot serve 2 masters".

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:50 pm 
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Hi, welcome.

See you're from New Jersey - what exit? :tongue:


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:51 pm 
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102. :rolling:

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