Illusion

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Illusion

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:02 pm

Tashi delek,

Sometimes it is not so clear, what is illusion.

There exist many explanations about what is meant by illusion.
So it is very interesting to know your suggestions what would be illusion for you.

Especially in Dzogchen it is difficult to make a clear understanding in the understanding of illusion.


Mutsug Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
User avatar
kalden yungdrung
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby futerko » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:25 pm

Dzogchen stresses the unity of essence and appearance, so in some ways the idea of illusion can be a bit misleading, rather the truth of appearance is essence and the truth of essence is appearance. In other words, form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Personally, I prefer the idea of the dream-like nature of reality, the self-display of light, sound, and rays.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
User avatar
futerko
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: Illusion

Postby songhill » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:08 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

Sometimes it is not so clear, what is illusion.

There exist many explanations about what is meant by illusion.
So it is very interesting to know your suggestions what would be illusion for you.

Especially in Dzogchen it is difficult to make a clear understanding in the understanding of illusion.


Mutsug Marro
KY


I hope this helps. Both are from the Lankavatarasutra.

"This all is unborn, but that does not mean that there are no objects; they are seen to be like the city of the Gandharvas, a dream, and Maya; objects are here, but causeless."

"The sense-organs are to be known as Maya, the sense-fields resemble a dream; actor, act, and acting—they do not at all [in reality] exist."
User avatar
songhill
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:23 am

Re: Illusion

Postby Salomon » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:56 pm

Illusion is felt as no more harming, the end of suffering from the phenomena you have seen through. Also illusion mean detachment from phenomena by seeing their real nature. You are free of phenomena concerned and you can never coming back to seeing them as real and able to harm and make you suffer.
User avatar
Salomon
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:27 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby Fa Dao » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:43 pm

Your body, mind, thoughts, feelings, and everything you perceive that is apparently outside of you are like reflections in a mirror...an illusion. The Nature of Mind is like the mirror...not an illusion.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
User avatar
Fa Dao
 
Posts: 482
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby futerko » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:14 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Your body, mind, thoughts, feelings, and everything you perceive that is apparently outside of you are like reflections in a mirror...an illusion. The Nature of Mind is like the mirror...not an illusion.


Not an illusion, but not actually "true" in the substantial sense as we are just talking about the "nature" of mind rather then anything substantive.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
User avatar
futerko
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: Illusion

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:20 am

The reflection of the moon in water is a good analogy, it's valid in that it's an appearance but it isn't anything substantial at all, all phenomena are like that. Appearances do not actually create anything, nor are they anything in and of themselves.

Here's the 8 similes of illusion (sgyu ma'i dpe brgyad):
1. Dream: like a dream, objects perceived with the five senses are not there, but they appear through delusion.
2. Magical illusion: like a magic illusion, things are made to appear due to the temporary coming together of causes and conditions.
3. Hallucination or trompe-l'oeil: like a hallucination, things appear, yet there is nothing there.
4. Mirage: like a mirage, things appear, but they are not real.
5. Echo: like an echo, things can be perceived, but there is nothing there, either inside or outside.
6. City of gandharvas: like a city of gandharvas, there is neither a dwelling nor anyone to dwell.
7. Reflection: like a reflection, things appear, but have no reality of their own .
8. Apparition: like an apparition, there are different types of appearances, but they are not really there.
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1314
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:34 am

Fa Dao wrote:Your body, mind, thoughts, feelings, and everything you perceive that is apparently outside of you are like reflections in a mirror...an illusion. The Nature of Mind is like the mirror...not an illusion.


Much better to use the mirror's capacity to reflect, rather than the mirror itself in my opinion. I wrote this awhile ago to clarify something I had written that was posted on a blog...

"...The mirror-analogy is commonly used in attempting to describe the 'nature of mind' and there is a common misconception which tends to arise from this analogy because the implementation of a mirror seems to convey a substantiated background (or unchanging source). I was attempting to point out that the analogy isn't meant to explore the mirror in itself as an unchanging basis, but solely the mirror's capacity to reflect. So the capacity is the aspect the analogy is exploring. Equating the nature of mind to the mirror's reflective capacity (but not the mirror itself). That the reflections are inseparable from that capacity, just like AEN elucidated with the fire-to-heat and water-to-wetness examples. That capacity isn't a conceivable quality, it isn't something which can be 'known' as a substantiated suchness. The capacity (to reflect) cannot be rolled, thrown or bounced, it has no shape, color, location, weight or height. There is nothing there one can point to and declare 'there it is!'. Yet in it's elusiveness it is still fully apparent in the presence of the reflections themselves. The capacity is evident because of the reflections and the reflections are evident because of the capacity, in truth they co-emergent and mutually interdependent qualities which are completely inseparable. Evident, clear and pure, yet unestablished, ungraspable and ephemeral."

Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche used the capacity aspect as well in one of his Longde books....

"Our primordial potentiality is beyond form, but we have a symbol, and when we have a symbol then we can get in that knowledge. It is very easy to understand with an example. If you want to discover the potentiality of a mirror, how can you go about it? You can neither see or touch the nature or potentiality of a mirror, nor can you have contact with it in any ordinary way, the only way is to look in a mirror, and then the reflections will appear and through the reflections you can discover it. The reflections are not really the potentiality of the mirror but they are manifesting through that potentiality, so they are something visible for us. With this example we can get in the knowledge of the potentiality of the mirror...."
- Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

"Why then do we have this symbol of primordial potentiality? Primordial potentiality in the Dzogchen teaching is explained with three principles: sound, light and rays. This does not mean that sound, light and rays are manifestations, but rather that these are the root of all manifestations. When you have this potentiality then there is always the possibility of manifestations. If we wonder, for example what the potentiality of a mirror looks like, we couldn't say very much, we could say for example that it is clear, pure, limpid and so forth, but we could not really have contact with it directly through our senses. In the same way sound, light and rays are the essence of potentiality. When we have this potentiality, if secondary causes arise, then anything can manifest.
What do we mean by secondary causes? For example, if in front of a mirror there is tree, or a flower or a person, the object instantly manifests. These are secondary causes. So if there is no secondary cause there is no manifestation. Thus in front of our primordial potentiality there are all the possibilities of manifestation of the secondary causes....."
- Chögyal Namkhai Norbu


I think it's an important distinction... the mirror itself is often used to elucidate the nature of mind, but I personally believe it can potentially convey the wrong idea, the mirror's capacity (or potentiality) allows for a much more dynamic and less substantial notion of the natural state, more of an accurate representation IMO.
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1314
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby Fa Dao » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:20 am

Asunthatneversets and Futerko...
good points, I dont disagree with you I was just being more succinct is all. By seeing the illusory nature of all that I mentioned one can then find the mirror and begin to see the mirrors capacity because after all of that the only thing left is that.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
User avatar
Fa Dao
 
Posts: 482
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby oldbob » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:58 am

Nice song about illusion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob0mYdbFjdU

Also interesting is the tsel, dang and rolpa presentation of the three ways that the energy of illusion presents to consciousness:

as reflections of light hitting a crystal, as an object seen in the crystal and as an object seen underneath a crystal, as through the crystal.

Yes, everything can be seen of as the illusory nature of the absence of permanence in anything, yet still it is highly recommend to maintain presence and awareness and always try to fly from the ground up - should you be moved to flap your rushen wings.

:smile:
oldbob
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Illusion

Postby Drew » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:23 pm

Off a reflecting surface
that is perfect and smooth
the angle of incidence will
bounce and equal
the angle of reflection.

Practice polishing smooth
your reflecting surface
and witness the bounce of light
from the perspective
of the point between.

The point that bounces
the incident ray
into
the reflected ray
sees both sides
and understands
the complete illusion.
Drew
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:52 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby Harold » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:51 am

The practice of Buddhism is an ILLUSION which replaces other ILLUSIONS.

For most sentient beings Buddhism is a necessary ILLUSION, but ultimately Buddhism is JUST ANOTHER ILLUSION.

Teaching from the long deceased Gesar Kusali Rinpoche.
:namaste:
Harold
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:38 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby oldbob » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:13 pm

Harold wrote:The practice of Buddhism is an ILLUSION which replaces other ILLUSIONS.

For most sentient beings Buddhism is a necessary ILLUSION, but ultimately Buddhism is JUST ANOTHER ILLUSION.

Teaching from the long deceased Gesar Kusali Rinpoche.
:namaste:


So perhaps any name signifies a collection of conventional references ascribed to that name, and this collection gets its meaning, or significance, by the totality of its conventional usage to date, and this changes, moving forward in time. So "Buddhism" is empty of a permanent self nature too: just one fleeting image in a shifting hall of mirrors, and there is nothing to grasp as permanent, even if you try.

Like breathing in and breathing out.

Isn't it wonderful!

:smile:

:heart:
oldbob
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Illusion

Postby Dronma » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:01 am

Illusion is the struggle to conceive the inconceivable.

Illusion is the struggle to make permanent the impermanence.

Illusion is the struggle to solidify the fluidity.

Illusion is the struggle itself.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
User avatar
Dronma
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:29 pm
Location: Athens - GR

Re: Illusion

Postby oldbob » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:57 pm

Dronma wrote:Illusion is the struggle to conceive the inconceivable.

Illusion is the struggle to make permanent the impermanence.

Illusion is the struggle to solidify the fluidity.

Illusion is the struggle itself.


Nice poem! :good:
oldbob
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Illusion

Postby dorjeshonnu » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:45 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:So it is very interesting to know your suggestions what would be illusion for you.
any particular thing
dorjeshonnu
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:13 am

IMHO

Illusion is:

One/many
Both/neither
And/or
Same/separate
Essence/energy
Real/unreal
'Exists'/'does not exist'
Waking/dream
Inexpressible/expressible
Is/is not
Freedom/love
Life/death
Bliss/suffering
Beyond name and form/name and form
Wisdom/compassion
Inclusion/exclusion
Middle/extreme

It is also none of these things.
Karma Dondrup Tashi
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:34 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Your body, mind, thoughts, feelings, and everything you perceive that is apparently outside of you are like reflections in a mirror...an illusion. The Nature of Mind is like the mirror...not an illusion.



Tashi delek,

outside of you are like reflections in a mirror

That is very interesting, how are those reflections seen regarding the mirror? A mirror can reflect that is sure, but how can outer phenomena reflect regarding the mind? Does the eye here function as the reflecting factor?

- I know there is also a view / vision possible from inside to outside...........
- From the outer side are all things which do come out of Nature absolutely pure and clear.........


Mutsug Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
User avatar
kalden yungdrung
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:43 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:Your body, mind, thoughts, feelings, and everything you perceive that is apparently outside of you are like reflections in a mirror...an illusion. The Nature of Mind is like the mirror...not an illusion.



Tashi delek,

outside of you are like reflections in a mirror

That is very interesting, how are those reflections seen regarding the mirror? A mirror can reflect that is sure, but how can outer phenomena reflect regarding the mind? Does the eye here function as the reflecting factor?

- I know there is also a view / vision possible from inside to outside...........
- From the outer side are all things which do come out of Nature absolutely pure and clear.........


Mutsug Marro
KY


The nature of mind is also illusory, everything is illusory according to dzogchen.

Inside/outside are merely conventional designations which are useful but are ultimately empty. Conventionally, notions of inside and outside the body (subjective and objective experience) are important because working with the body is an important aspect of dzogchen, but when it comes to the view everything is primordially pure and free from extremes, so when resting in the view there's no need to reify appearances being outside or inside, everything is just appearing.

Important not to fixate on the idea of a mirror (i.e. a substantiated background or substratum) either because that creates a subtle reference point. The mirror metaphor is implemented to make us notice how the mirror's capacity to reflect is inseparable from the reflections themselves (so we can apply that to our own experience). If that metaphor is applied to oneself; the mirror's capacity to reflect corresponds to our immediate capacity to experience... and the mirror's reflections correspond to the phenomena of experience. The mirror's capacity to reflect is inseparable from the reflections, and our immediate capacity to experience is inseparable from experience itself etc. When the direct intuitive knowledge (that metaphor is meaning to convey) is recognized, that is the view. But again, within that nothing is ever established or unestablished (kadag).
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1314
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Illusion

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:57 am

asunthatneversets wrote:The nature of mind is also illusory, everything is illusory according to dzogchen.

Inside/outside are merely conventional designations which are useful but are ultimately empty. Conventionally, notions of inside and outside the body (subjective and objective experience) are important because working with the body is an important aspect of dzogchen, but when it comes to the view everything is primordially pure and free from extremes, so when resting in the view there's no need to reify appearances being outside or inside, everything is just appearing.

Important not to fixate on the idea of a mirror (i.e. a substantiated background or substratum) either because that creates a subtle reference point. The mirror metaphor is implemented to make us notice how the mirror's capacity to reflect is inseparable from the reflections themselves (so we can apply that to our own experience). If that metaphor is applied to oneself; the mirror's capacity to reflect corresponds to our immediate capacity to experience... and the mirror's reflections correspond to the phenomena of experience. The mirror's capacity to reflect is inseparable from the reflections, and our immediate capacity to experience is inseparable from experience itself etc. When the direct intuitive knowledge (that metaphor is meaning to convey) is recognized, that is the view. But again, within that nothing is ever established or unestablished (kadag).

Yep. That's it.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Andrew108
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Next

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests

>