the great vegetarian debate

[PorkChop]

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

Website courtesy of the "Weston A. Price Foundation"

Which is "criticized by medical and health experts for "purveying misleading information" and "failing to update their recommendations in light of contradictory evidence". Not a very reliable source of information. Weston A Price has his own listing on "Quackwatch.com".

since you quoted quackwatch...
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... vegan.html

[Johnny Dangerous]

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

Website courtesy of the "Weston A. Price Foundation"

Which is "criticized by medical and health experts for "purveying misleading information" and "failing to update their recommendations in light of contradictory evidence". Not a very reliable source of information. Weston A Price has his own listing on "Quackwatch.com".

Quackwatch.com is not a very good resource unless you subscribe pretty much whole-heartedly to western, allopathic view of nutrition, medicine, what have you, and exclude almost any alternative viewpoint - including evidence based ones.

Serious irony to use Quackwatch as a source to back up ANY of the opinions given in this thread lol.

[Nemo]

... (I would say my people are physiologically adapted to eating meat to the point that without it we die Thrasymachus.) ...

That is nonsense, clearly most meat-eaters on this site are not familiar with anatomy, anthropology, etc, on the matter, nor any of the advances in nutritional and epidemiological research. Hunting is hard and brutal, even with modern rifles it is often hard and difficult in most locales in the world for us humans. So how do real life obligate carnivores do it?

The fact that 1 in 50 of my people die when they don't eat meat is a fact sir. You are the one with uninformed opinions and zealous rage. Humans are omnivores, not vegetarians. We have had long periods on many different diets. We are partially adapted in a myriad of directions and most people are genetically predisposed to to thrive on a particular diet. For some it is a vegetarian diet. For my ancestors meat was an obvious necessity. our DNA tells the story. Now that it has been mapped we can start to embrace vegetarianism without slowly dying.

[seeker242]

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

Website courtesy of the "Weston A. Price Foundation"

Which is "criticized by medical and health experts for "purveying misleading information" and "failing to update their recommendations in light of contradictory evidence". Not a very reliable source of information. Weston A Price has his own listing on "Quackwatch.com".

since you quoted quackwatch...
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... vegan.html

Are you aware of William T. Jarvis's opinion of Weston A Price and his foundation? He considers them to be quacks.

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

Website courtesy of the "Weston A. Price Foundation"

Which is "criticized by medical and health experts for "purveying misleading information" and "failing to update their recommendations in light of contradictory evidence". Not a very reliable source of information. Weston A Price has his own listing on "Quackwatch.com".

Quackwatch.com is not a very good resource unless you subscribe pretty much whole-heartedly to western, allopathic view of nutrition, medicine, what have you, and exclude almost any alternative viewpoint - including evidence based ones.

Too bad Weston A Price never used any evidence based... anything!

Standard Process Laboratories (SPL) is a division of Vitamin Products Company (VPC), Milwaukee, Wisconsin. VPC was founded by the late Royal Lee, DDS, who never practiced dentistry but used his title of "doctor" to lend credence to his off-beat nutrition ideas. In 1963, Lee was described by a prominent FDA official as "probably the largest publisher of unreliable and false nutritional information in the world." The following description appeared in the medical news column of the Journal of the American Medical Association, April 7, 1962:

...Royal Lee, who for many years has been one of the leading sources of nutritional quackery in this country, has pleaded no contest in a criminal action at Milwaukee and is awaiting sentence for distributing misbranded vitamin and proprietary remedies. He has also consented to an injunction which will stop distribution of more than 115 products claimed to be good for some 500 different diseases and conditions. http://www.ncahf.org/articles/j-n/lee.html

Royal Lee was a friend and colleague of Weston A. Price and they held the same views on nutrition as described above.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I'm not specifically referencing Weston Price, he is a controversial figure to say the least. The foundation even more so...


Merely pointing out the substantial irony of someone on a Buddhist forum using a site like Quackwatch as evidence of views on the health of vegetarianism, veganism or pretty much anything that isn't the status quo approach to medicine or nutrition.

The mention of evidence-based is because, among other things Quackwatch and it's sponsoring entities are on of the most vocal opponents out there of evidence-based CAM.

[seeker242]

I'm not specifically referencing Weston Price, he is a controversial figure to say the least.


Merely pointing out the hilarity inducing irony of someone on a Buddhist forum using a site like Quackwatch as evidence of views on the health vegetarianism, veganism or pretty much anything that isn't the status quo approach to medicine or nutrition.

It was not evidence of views on the health of vegetarianism. It was a view on Weston a Price specifically, to point out the fact that he is considered a quack by a large number of professionals.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I'm not specifically referencing Weston Price, he is a controversial figure to say the least.


Merely pointing out the hilarity inducing irony of someone on a Buddhist forum using a site like Quackwatch as evidence of views on the health vegetarianism, veganism or pretty much anything that isn't the status quo approach to medicine or nutrition.

It was not evidence of views on the health of vegetarianism. It was a view on Weston a Price specifically, to point out the fact that he is considered a quack by a large number of professionals.

Ok, frame it how ya want and i'll do the same.

Bottom line for me, the "medical and health" experts you are using as evidence are people who are critical of pretty much anything outside mainstream medicine, which makes them an odd choice of sources, given the context.

[seeker242]

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
J Am Diet Assoc. 2009 Jul;109(7):1266-82.
Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets.
Craig WJ, Mangels AR; American Dietetic Association.
Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI, USA.

From the scientific journal of the single largest organization of nutrition professionals in the world, if you want some real sources concerning the health of vegetarianism.

[Johnny Dangerous]

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
J Am Diet Assoc. 2009 Jul;109(7):1266-82.
Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets.
Craig WJ, Mangels AR; American Dietetic Association.
Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI, USA.

From the scientific journal of the single largest organization of nutrition professionals in the world, if you want some real sources concerning the health of vegetarianism.

Probably gonna regret even engaging on this but..

Did you not understand the context of what i'm saying? I didn't deny the health of vegetarianism, I pointed out the irony of quack watch as source, stop trying to win some argument I never had with you.

There is nothing in that statement even remotely controversial, and nothing stating emphatically that eating vegetarian is hugely more healthful than another diet, so what exactly are you trying to use it to "prove" if anything?

[seeker242]

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
J Am Diet Assoc. 2009 Jul;109(7):1266-82.
Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets.
Craig WJ, Mangels AR; American Dietetic Association.
Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI, USA.

From the scientific journal of the single largest organization of nutrition professionals in the world, if you want some real sources concerning the health of vegetarianism.

Did you not understand the context of what i'm saying? I didn't deny the health of vegetarianism, I pointed out the irony of quack watch as source, stop trying to win some argument I never had with you.

You must have not understood my post. I did not use quackwatch as a source concerning health of vegetarianism...

[Johnny Dangerous]

Ok.

[CrawfordHollow]

Link between low protein intake and irritablity? Hmm....

[porpoise]

The practice of Buddhism intrinsically includes kindness to animals. The practice of Buddhism intrinsically includes kindness to all living beings.

That's my understanding. And I'd feel like a hypocrite buying meat because effectively I'd be saying: "I'm a Buddhist and don't want to kill animals, but I'm happy for somebody else to do it on my behalf."
Leaving aside the fact that business in meat is traditionally wrong livelihood.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Can't argue with that in principle, but undeniably this can be done because it's virtually consequence-free for us. I don't see nearly as many people say the same about not paying taxes that support drone bombings. What about not buying/using mobile phones made off slave labor, or any other products that may have resulted in extreme suffering or death for living beings? Guaranteed there is a lot more than your food that falls into this category.

There are all kinds of ways in which we indirectly participate in horror, if you look closely you find it's near impossible not to without completely dropping out.IMO placing too much emphasis on relatively easy lifestyle stuff like vegetarianism vs. not is either a narrow way of viewing these things, or worse it can even be deliberate obfuscation of other, possibly even more important things to not involve oneself in.

Again, not saying there is no point by any means, but I see alot of the basic reasoning behind these decisions NOT being applied to other areas of life from vegetarians and vegans I know. I'd call it selective Ahimsa.

For me simply taking the five precepts seriously and living them as best I can is enough to work on, I respect others wishes to be vegetarian, and I acknowledge it can't help but bring some kind of merit..until it becomes like the above, some kind of justification for not paying attention to other things. Not accusing anyone here of that at all, it has just been experience with people I know.

[porpoise]

Again, not saying there is no point by any means, but I see alot of the basic reasoning behind these decisions NOT being applied to other areas of life from vegetarians and vegans I know. I'd call it selective Ahimsa.

For me it's about making skillful choices where I can, without breaking the law by withholding taxes or whatever.

[catmoon]

On the other hand, if you DEFINE health as being vegan, then you will of course be healthy if you go vegan. Even if your hair is falling out, even though you half pass out every time you get out of a chair, even if your children suffer permanent mental impairments from B12 deficiency, even if your muscles waste away and you become permanently and irrationally irritable, those who define going vegan as "health" will claim you are perfectly healthy.

Even the Dalai Lama, who has as much motivation and compassion as anyone on the planet, got very sick on a vegetarian diet. He returned to his old diet and his health returned. Same story with Buddhist friends of mine.

*initiating Thrasymachus mode*

So don't follow the advice of the vegan criminals who are really just trying to kill you and/or co-opt you into their socialist political program. To control minds, they must first be weakened, and the socialist hordes just want to break down your strength and resistance so that you will give up and conform like the faceless, mindless, soulless masses of vegans that have gone before.

*terminating Thrasymachus mode*

Oh gee did that sound a bit over the top? A bit irrational and irritable maybe? Maybe a tad paranoid? Sorry about that, I've had almost no protein today.

[Nemo]

If you believe in evolutionary adaption you should probably eat what your ancestors did if you want to be healthy. Mine lived so far North that agriculture was not possible.

I do find it odd that I get much healthier when I live in Asia near the equator. I would love to find out why that happens. Even the natives I went with got sick. I drank the water on the first day and got healthier and healthier. Maybe I am allergic to gluten or some environmental thing up North here. Maybe all the swimming in the sea and fresh coconut water every morning. The equal day and night is so awesome. There are only 8.5 hours of daylight here today. Blech.

So the health "benefits" are dubious and the environmental arguments are incredibly short lived thanks to exponential population growth. Ethically,even if it wrecks your health, veggies have my utmost respect. No one said ethical decisions were easy. The cost is what makes them cool.

[PadmaVonSamba]

The practice of Buddhism intrinsically includes kindness to animals. The practice of Buddhism intrinsically includes kindness to all living beings.

That's my understanding. And I'd feel like a hypocrite buying meat because effectively I'd be saying: "I'm a Buddhist and don't want to kill animals, but I'm happy for somebody else to do it on my behalf."
Leaving aside the fact that business in meat is traditionally wrong livelihood.

Are you clinging to "not being a hypocrite" ?
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[PadmaVonSamba]

There are two reasons that usually guide people to a vegetarian diet. One is for personal health reasons, and another is out of kindness to animals. Lately, the protection of Earth's natural resources has also become a factor for many people. These are all good reasons not to eat meat, but they are also just as valid as reasons simply to not eat as much meat, even if one is not a "pure' vegetarian or vegan.

So then, what is to be gained by striving for some notion of dietary purity? To me, that is the question a Buddhist might want to consider. We cannot lead perfect lives, although we should make the effort to. At the same time, if we develop feelings of moral superiority, or condemn others, then how much further does that remove a person from realizing their Buddha Nature which is intrinsically pure to begin with? Even if we save a million animals by not eating them, this is only a very tiny amount compared to how many beings one would benefit as an enlightened being.

Being a vegetarian or a vegan, in Samsara, is a very nice thing to do, but that's really about all it is. So, thanks anyway, but don't act like it's some big deal, because it isn't. And any merit gained from such righteous culinary actions are quickly destroyed by an attitude of superiority (pride), which is a very hard habit to break.

Buddhists take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. But what does "refuge" mean? It is the path to realization of the end of suffering, meaning that it is the path one chooses as the method of liberation. And while it is a good thing to be a vegetarian Buddhist, it is another thing to "take refuge" in vegetarianism, or veganism, which, I think, is actually what some people do. Then they propagate vegetarianism or veganism as a path in itself, and when confronted by Buddhists who might eat meat, they experience a contradiction, or see people as hypocrites, and this does not conform to the picture in their minds that they cling to, about what a Buddhist should be. Then, they argue vegetarianism under the pretext of arguing some sort of "correct" Buddhism.

The fact is, some Buddhists eat meat and some do not. And then, they die. And I think, to argue vegetarianism as the only true way a Buddhist should eat misses the whole point of the Buddha's teachings, and reduces Dharma to a set of dietary laws. And since the act of chewing and swallowing anything takes up less than 2% or 3% of a person's whole life, maybe the issue is blown out of proportion. If the Dharma is only available to vegetarians, then it is a very narrow and limited path.
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[greentara]

catmoon, "On the other hand, if you define health as being vegan, then you will of course be healthy if you go vegan. Even if your hair is falling out, even though you half pass out every time you get out of a chair, even if your children suffer permanent mental impairments from B12 deficiency"
You can be B12 deficient on a vegetarian diet, you don't have to be vegan to be depleted. 'Ahimsa', (being harmless) is an issue we all have to think deeply about. There is no one shoe fits all.
In Sth India where vegetarianism is 'de regle', they eat huge servings of white rice and have a high incidence of diabetes. Their ancestors have been vegetarian for at least a thousand years and the body knows nothing else. We on the other hand......