the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:38 pm

NPR did a story on this recently! :)

Human longevity is thought to be explained by a combination of genetic and environmental factors. But recent studies show that as much as 90 percent of life expectancy may be determined by habits. Several years ago, a team of National Geographic scientists identified four regions in the world where people live the longest.

In these so-called “Blue Zones,” residents experience far lower rates of chronic disease than Americans do. And people who live in these zones share common habits: they eat mostly plants, are spiritual and have strong ties with family and friends. Now, researchers have identified a fifth Blue Zone: the island of Ikaria, Greece. Author and explorer Dan Buettner on lessons for a long life from the world’s oldest people. http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012- ... nd-edition


I don't think it's a coincidence that people who eat mostly plants, are the longest lived people on the planet.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:40 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:I am not disagreeing with you that vegetarianism is good for one's health or that it is kinder to animals.
But in the context of Buddhism,
show me how being a vegetarian reduces ego-clinging.
.
.
.


The practice of Buddhism intrinsically includes kindness to animals. The practice of Buddhism intrinsically includes kindness to all living beings.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thrasymachus » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:47 pm

A long sick life is what Tibetans, Eskimos and Mongolians would have lived if they had the luxury to have access to modern cholesterol lowering statin drugs, diabetic medication, arthritis lowering NSAIDs, medications for high blood pressure, etc. that contemporary Americans have access to. However they just had a short sick life from all the animal proteins and fats.

More on the Tibetans, eating their traditional disease promoting animal based diet:
Lhamo Y. Sherpa, et al. wrote:Lipid Profile and Its Association with Risk Factors for Coronary Heart Disease in the Highlanders of Lhasa, Tibet

... The staple diet of an ordinary Tibetan in Tibet is yak meat, mutton, barley, flour, and dried cheese. The main beverage is brick tea flavored with butter and salt.

Conclusion
This study demonstrated a high prevalence of hypertriglyceridemia in males, a higher prevalence of low HDL-C in females, and a high hypercholesterolemia prevalence in both genders. WHR is associated with an increase in TG, TC, and LDL-C and supports the view that abdominal obesity may be an important cardiovascular risk factor. This study emphasizes the role of HDL-C, which may avert the CHD risk in females. Further studies with longitudinal data are needed to assess the risk factors for CHD in high altitude populations.


To interpret that:
Hypertriglyceridemia (hTG), a condition in which triglyceride levels are elevated, is a common disorder in the United States. It is often caused or exacerbated by uncontrolled diabetes mellitus, obesity, and sedentary habits, all of which are more prevalent in industrialized societies than in developing nations. In epidemiologic and interventional studies, hypertriglyceridemia is a risk factor for coronary artery disease (CAD).

HDL Cholesterol: The Good Cholesterol

High blood cholesterol levels (Hypercholesterolemia) Cholesterol is a fat (also called a lipid) that your body needs to work properly. But too much bad cholesterol can increase your chance of getting heart disease, stroke, and other problems.

WHR - Waist–hip ratio

TG - high triglycerides a type of fat found in your blood. ... You need some triglycerides for good health. But high triglycerides can raise your risk of heart disease and may be a sign of metabolic syndrome.

TC - total cholesterol - Your total blood cholesterol is a measure of LDL cholesterol, HDL cholesterol, and other lipid components.

LDL-C : “The Bad Cholesterol”

coronary heart disease (CHD)

In other words: Tibetans on their traditional animal based diet are walking health disasters.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PorkChop » Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:30 pm

Frank Mir didn't just say it's about size.
[Vegan diet] kept my weight down. But honestly, my body fat wasn't as low – I got a little bit softer. I was getting injured a lot more. I felt a lack of 'umph.' But I was very determined to try and be a healthier person.


EDIT: I know I shouldn't post this, but what the heck.
Actually, I do train for hours a day.
Usually over 10 hours a week, I have to keep my weight in check for competition.
You don't know anything about me or my background aside from what I've posted, yet you keep jumping to conclusion after conclusion; making judgement after self-serving judgement.
Nothing I say is going to make a difference to you, your mind is already too closed.
For your own sake, I hope you're not like this in person.

porpoise
thanks for the site.
still looking through it.
they make some pretty bold claims.
that baby picture at the top is freakin me out. :)

BTW- that study misrepresents the Okinawan diet. I know, because that's where I'm from.
During WWII, the indigenous pig supply was largely killed off (their main source of food outside of rice).
Americans shipped them more pigs, but for about 20~30 years afterward, while the domestication program was getting back up to speed; pork became somewhat of a luxury.
Now that the pigs are back, people are returning to their normal eating habits.
This includes traditional Okinawan favorites like So-ki soba, Goya Chanpuru, Okinawa Soba, pigs ear, Okinawan-style Yakisoba, etc, etc, etc.
They eat more pork than I do.
They also tend to drink pretty heavily.
They live a long time because they have a very "nan kuru naisa" (don't let it get to you) attitude about life and an "ichariba chode" (siblings from the first time we meet) attitude about people.

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

Starting to realize I have absolutely no place on this thread; I can't expect people to respect my decisions.
So with that, I'm going to exit stage left.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:45 pm



Website courtesy of the "Weston A. Price Foundation"

Which is "criticized by medical and health experts for "purveying misleading information" and "failing to update their recommendations in light of contradictory evidence". Not a very reliable source of information. Weston A Price has his own listing on "Quackwatch.com".
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PorkChop » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:55 pm

seeker242 wrote:


Website courtesy of the "Weston A. Price Foundation"

Which is "criticized by medical and health experts for "purveying misleading information" and "failing to update their recommendations in light of contradictory evidence". Not a very reliable source of information. Weston A Price has his own listing on "Quackwatch.com".

since you quoted quackwatch...
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... vegan.html
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:03 pm

seeker242 wrote:


Website courtesy of the "Weston A. Price Foundation"

Which is "criticized by medical and health experts for "purveying misleading information" and "failing to update their recommendations in light of contradictory evidence". Not a very reliable source of information. Weston A Price has his own listing on "Quackwatch.com".


Quackwatch.com is not a very good resource unless you subscribe pretty much whole-heartedly to western, allopathic view of nutrition, medicine, what have you, and exclude almost any alternative viewpoint - including evidence based ones.

Serious irony to use Quackwatch as a source to back up ANY of the opinions given in this thread lol.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nemo » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:17 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:
Nemo wrote:... (I would say my people are physiologically adapted to eating meat to the point that without it we die Thrasymachus.) ...


That is nonsense, clearly most meat-eaters on this site are not familiar with anatomy, anthropology, etc, on the matter, nor any of the advances in nutritional and epidemiological research. Hunting is hard and brutal, even with modern rifles it is often hard and difficult in most locales in the world for us humans. So how do real life obligate carnivores do it?


The fact that 1 in 50 of my people die when they don't eat meat is a fact sir. You are the one with uninformed opinions and zealous rage. Humans are omnivores, not vegetarians. We have had long periods on many different diets. We are partially adapted in a myriad of directions and most people are genetically predisposed to to thrive on a particular diet. For some it is a vegetarian diet. For my ancestors meat was an obvious necessity. our DNA tells the story. Now that it has been mapped we can start to embrace vegetarianism without slowly dying.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:58 pm

PorkChop wrote:
seeker242 wrote:


Website courtesy of the "Weston A. Price Foundation"

Which is "criticized by medical and health experts for "purveying misleading information" and "failing to update their recommendations in light of contradictory evidence". Not a very reliable source of information. Weston A Price has his own listing on "Quackwatch.com".

since you quoted quackwatch...
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... vegan.html


Are you aware of William T. Jarvis's opinion of Weston A Price and his foundation? He considers them to be quacks.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
seeker242 wrote:


Website courtesy of the "Weston A. Price Foundation"

Which is "criticized by medical and health experts for "purveying misleading information" and "failing to update their recommendations in light of contradictory evidence". Not a very reliable source of information. Weston A Price has his own listing on "Quackwatch.com".


Quackwatch.com is not a very good resource unless you subscribe pretty much whole-heartedly to western, allopathic view of nutrition, medicine, what have you, and exclude almost any alternative viewpoint - including evidence based ones.



Too bad Weston A Price never used any evidence based... anything!

Standard Process Laboratories (SPL) is a division of Vitamin Products Company (VPC), Milwaukee, Wisconsin. VPC was founded by the late Royal Lee, DDS, who never practiced dentistry but used his title of "doctor" to lend credence to his off-beat nutrition ideas. In 1963, Lee was described by a prominent FDA official as "probably the largest publisher of unreliable and false nutritional information in the world." The following description appeared in the medical news column of the Journal of the American Medical Association, April 7, 1962:

...Royal Lee, who for many years has been one of the leading sources of nutritional quackery in this country, has pleaded no contest in a criminal action at Milwaukee and is awaiting sentence for distributing misbranded vitamin and proprietary remedies. He has also consented to an injunction which will stop distribution of more than 115 products claimed to be good for some 500 different diseases and conditions. http://www.ncahf.org/articles/j-n/lee.html


Royal Lee was a friend and colleague of Weston A. Price and they held the same views on nutrition as described above.
Last edited by seeker242 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:11 pm

I'm not specifically referencing Weston Price, he is a controversial figure to say the least. The foundation even more so...


Merely pointing out the substantial irony of someone on a Buddhist forum using a site like Quackwatch as evidence of views on the health of vegetarianism, veganism or pretty much anything that isn't the status quo approach to medicine or nutrition.

The mention of evidence-based is because, among other things Quackwatch and it's sponsoring entities are on of the most vocal opponents out there of evidence-based CAM.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:17 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I'm not specifically referencing Weston Price, he is a controversial figure to say the least.


Merely pointing out the hilarity inducing irony of someone on a Buddhist forum using a site like Quackwatch as evidence of views on the health vegetarianism, veganism or pretty much anything that isn't the status quo approach to medicine or nutrition.


It was not evidence of views on the health of vegetarianism. It was a view on Weston a Price specifically, to point out the fact that he is considered a quack by a large number of professionals. :smile:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:21 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I'm not specifically referencing Weston Price, he is a controversial figure to say the least.


Merely pointing out the hilarity inducing irony of someone on a Buddhist forum using a site like Quackwatch as evidence of views on the health vegetarianism, veganism or pretty much anything that isn't the status quo approach to medicine or nutrition.


It was not evidence of views on the health of vegetarianism. It was a view on Weston a Price specifically, to point out the fact that he is considered a quack by a large number of professionals. :smile:


Ok, frame it how ya want and i'll do the same.

Bottom line for me, the "medical and health" experts you are using as evidence are people who are critical of pretty much anything outside mainstream medicine, which makes them an odd choice of sources, given the context.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:26 pm

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
J Am Diet Assoc. 2009 Jul;109(7):1266-82.
Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets.
Craig WJ, Mangels AR; American Dietetic Association.
Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI, USA.


From the scientific journal of the single largest organization of nutrition professionals in the world, if you want some real sources concerning the health of vegetarianism.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:29 pm

seeker242 wrote:
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
J Am Diet Assoc. 2009 Jul;109(7):1266-82.
Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets.
Craig WJ, Mangels AR; American Dietetic Association.
Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI, USA.


From the scientific journal of the single largest organization of nutrition professionals in the world, if you want some real sources concerning the health of vegetarianism.


Probably gonna regret even engaging on this but..

Did you not understand the context of what i'm saying? I didn't deny the health of vegetarianism, I pointed out the irony of quack watch as source, stop trying to win some argument I never had with you.

There is nothing in that statement even remotely controversial, and nothing stating emphatically that eating vegetarian is hugely more healthful than another diet, so what exactly are you trying to use it to "prove" if anything?
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:31 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
J Am Diet Assoc. 2009 Jul;109(7):1266-82.
Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets.
Craig WJ, Mangels AR; American Dietetic Association.
Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI, USA.


From the scientific journal of the single largest organization of nutrition professionals in the world, if you want some real sources concerning the health of vegetarianism.



Did you not understand the context of what i'm saying? I didn't deny the health of vegetarianism, I pointed out the irony of quack watch as source, stop trying to win some argument I never had with you.


You must have not understood my post. I did not use quackwatch as a source concerning health of vegetarianism...
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:34 pm

Ok.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby CrawfordHollow » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:43 am

Link between low protein intake and irritablity? Hmm....
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby porpoise » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:43 am

seeker242 wrote:The practice of Buddhism intrinsically includes kindness to animals. The practice of Buddhism intrinsically includes kindness to all living beings.


That's my understanding. And I'd feel like a hypocrite buying meat because effectively I'd be saying: "I'm a Buddhist and don't want to kill animals, but I'm happy for somebody else to do it on my behalf."
Leaving aside the fact that business in meat is traditionally wrong livelihood. ;)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:09 pm

Can't argue with that in principle, but undeniably this can be done because it's virtually consequence-free for us. I don't see nearly as many people say the same about not paying taxes that support drone bombings. What about not buying/using mobile phones made off slave labor, or any other products that may have resulted in extreme suffering or death for living beings? Guaranteed there is a lot more than your food that falls into this category.

There are all kinds of ways in which we indirectly participate in horror, if you look closely you find it's near impossible not to without completely dropping out.IMO placing too much emphasis on relatively easy lifestyle stuff like vegetarianism vs. not is either a narrow way of viewing these things, or worse it can even be deliberate obfuscation of other, possibly even more important things to not involve oneself in.

Again, not saying there is no point by any means, but I see alot of the basic reasoning behind these decisions NOT being applied to other areas of life from vegetarians and vegans I know. I'd call it selective Ahimsa.

For me simply taking the five precepts seriously and living them as best I can is enough to work on, I respect others wishes to be vegetarian, and I acknowledge it can't help but bring some kind of merit..until it becomes like the above, some kind of justification for not paying attention to other things. Not accusing anyone here of that at all, it has just been experience with people I know.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby porpoise » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:24 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Again, not saying there is no point by any means, but I see alot of the basic reasoning behind these decisions NOT being applied to other areas of life from vegetarians and vegans I know. I'd call it selective Ahimsa.


For me it's about making skillful choices where I can, without breaking the law by withholding taxes or whatever.
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