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the great vegetarian debate - Page 79 - Dhamma Wheel

the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Khitij
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Khitij » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:26 am


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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:43 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:24 am

Khitij,
In which case does a cow suffer most?
1. Raised in a safe pasture with ample nutritious food and no threat to survival unti after a lingering ilness of perhaps months it dies
2. Raised in a safe pasture with ample nutritious food and no threat to survival unti one day instead of going into the barn with the other cows it is coaxed aside where it is quickly and humanely killed.
3. It lives in the wild and is subject to prenatal death through malnutrition of the mother, the threat of death through predation which starts at birth and continues throughout its entire life and eventually being hunted down by a predator and being perhaps partly consumed while still conscious.

I'm not arguing for or against any particular dietary choice here....I'm just thinking that people should see the possibilities for a cows life as they realistically are....my view is that probably number 2 is one which provides the least suffering...a cow can be killed without it even knowing what is happening....a virtual non-event.....I do agree though that for most cows killed for food it is not done in that way....perhaps it would be better if compassionate people produced the meat we eat.....but it seems that those who claim to have this compassion don't want to get involved....

Again I'm not arguing any side of any issue....I'm just trying to see things for what they are.

chownah

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:18 am


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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:23 am

Thanks, but I see nothing about the eating of meat in that statement.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:34 am


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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:36 am

Thanks Spiny, but to convince us you might need to supply a published definition of narcissism that includes the words "carnivore" or "meat eater".
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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retrofuturist
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:41 am

Greetings,

And demonstrate that the meat-eating Buddha was narcissistic....

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:42 am


PeterB
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeterB » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:51 am


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Dan74
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Dan74 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:53 am

_/|\_

PeterB
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeterB » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:10 am

That final paragraph of Bhante's post is one on which we can concur Dan. And one which is the essence of the issue for me.
At least one poster on this topic past and present simply refuses to accept that meat eating can happen in the absence of craving for flesh. Having observed the Forest Monks on many occasions eating a range of foodstuffs without any obvious craving or aversion I have no doubt that it is possible.
It is possible some individuals could not eat meat without craving more, and that they then assume that is the norm for everyone.


Incidentally adherence to the Vinaya does not imply clinging to views.
I know Bhikkhus who comply with great energy to the Vinaya and take breaches of the Vinaya very seriously, and who do not necessarily agree with all of it at an intellectual level. :o
They do it because the Vinaya has been shaped by wise heads over millennia...whatever the individual feels.
In other words they are able to adhere to the Vinaya only by NOT clinging to views.
Last edited by PeterB on Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dan74
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Dan74 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:16 am

Yes, I respect that. Just like I respect those who are strict vegetarians or vegans out of their genuine compassion for living sentient beings.

PS In response to your edit, Peter, I am with Ven Jagaro on this subject - like any ethical dilemma, it's got to be dealt with thoughtfully, honestly and compassionately, guided by the Buddha's teachings, rather than beating everyone over the head with some supposed absolute stance. So for instance for monastics depending on the dana, the situation is obviously different to the lay living in a place with an abundance of choice.
_/|\_

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Lazy_eye
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:00 am


chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:22 pm


Khitij
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Khitij » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:35 pm


PeterB
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeterB » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:04 pm

Your final sentence is rather at odds with much of the sentiment and tone of what precedes it in terms of your post Khitij.

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Lazy_eye
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:53 pm


alan
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby alan » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:09 am

A big Yay to Bhikkhu Pesala for his sensible, rational observations.
A big Boo to those who those who do not know the meaning of the words they use.

alan
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Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby alan » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:18 am

Hi morning mist
You don't need to worry about saturated fats. They are good for you.
As for Coconut milk, most of what you buy will be primarily water. Stay away from "lite" products and you'll be Ok. Better yet, get real coconut oil and cook with it, add it to your diet. I guarantee you will feel better.


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