the great vegetarian debate

[porpoise]

We can try to minimize it by altering our diet from meat to vegetarian, but even that kills insects and likely other small mammals like those posts farmers often kill when seen near their crops.

Sure, but isn't the point to minimise harm? And in any case feeding grain to people is far more efficient than feeding the grain to animals and then eating the animals.

[PorkChop]

We can try to minimize it by altering our diet from meat to vegetarian, but even that kills insects and likely other small mammals like those posts farmers often kill when seen near their crops.

Sure, but isn't the point to minimise harm? And in any case feeding grain to people is far more efficient than feeding the grain to animals and then eating the animals.

Not to be difficult, but do you think you could run the numbers for the amount of grains an animal would eat in its lifetime to feed x number of people for x amount of time (the meat from most animals is more than a single meal for a single person) vs the amount of grains x number of people for x amount of time?
I mean if you're going to make the claim that it is "far more efficient", it's not unreasonable to provide facts...
Otherwise, it's just pure speculation...

[Yudron]

I'm a vegetarian, and almost vegan because I am dairy intolerant. I'm not critical of others who are not. I am of the opinion that many vegetarians and vegans eat too little protein, including myself when I forget to think about having a good source of protein at every meal. If you plan and are aware of protein intake, most people can succeed as a vgetarian. Many people stop being vegetarians because they don't eat enough protein (especially men and tall muscular women, or people who are allergic to soy, or soy and wheat gluten) and so they don't feel good. Too little protein intake can cause over indulgence in Carbs, and that can easily lead to obesity for middle aged vegetarians.

People who can eat dairy can get a lot of protein from yogurt. Obviously there are many sources of vegetable protein, mostly beans, and no one is going to eat soy three times a day.

My point is simply that we have to think about it. For example, at Dharma centers they commonly serve delicious veggie dishes with veggies and noodles and little bits of tofu mixed together, that are totally inadequate sources of protein, and leave people thinking they could never survive as a vegetarian. You can definitely be satisfied as a vegetarian--but you need to each much more of the veg protein source than you would meat. So you have to learn new eating habits to make it work.

I use nuts, seeds and unsweetened soy yogurt with stevia as quick sources of protein between meals. But too many nuts lead to obesity, so mindfulness is needed.

Recommended Dietary Allowance for Protein (U.S. Centers for Disease Control)
Grams of protein
needed each day
Children ages 1 – 3 13
Children ages 4 – 8 19
Children ages 9 – 13 34
Girls ages 14 – 18 46
Boys ages 14 – 18 52
Women ages 19 – 70+ 46
Men ages 19 – 70+ 56

Amount of protein in tofu (one of the best veg sources of protein:)

One half-cup serving of raw firm tofu contains 10.1 grams of protein. A half-cup of tofu is approximately 4 oz by weight, or just under 1/3 of the average sized 14 oz package of tofu. By comparison, 1/2 cup dairy milk contains 5.1 grams of protein, one 3 oz egg contains 6 grams and 4 oz ground beef contains about 26 grams of protein.

Main point: There is almost three times the amount of protein in beef as in tofu so the number of ounces served should be greater for tofu than beef.

[David N. Snyder]

Protein is virtually in all foods. Even fruit, such as an orange has one gram of protein in it.

A healthy vegan diet and especially a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet provides plenty of protein. In fact most people in developed countries eat too much protein, both vegetarian and omnivore groups. The health problems in developed countries is not over any deficiencies, but rather excess; the excess fats, oils, and protein, leading to heart disease, obesity, cancers, etc.

[Yudron]

Protein is virtually in all foods. Even fruit, such as an orange has one gram of protein in it.

A healthy vegan diet and especially a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet provides plenty of protein. In fact most people in developed countries eat too much protein, both vegetarian and omnivore groups. The health problems in developed countries is not over any deficiencies, but rather excess; the excess fats, oils, and protein, leading to heart disease, obesity, cancers, etc.

I just disagree with you about this David. I see a lot of sick, irritable vegans from protein malnutrition, and lot of good hearted Buddhists who sincerely try to be veggies and give up. These same people can be healthy and happy vegetarians, or even vegans, if they eat more veg protein. A gram of protein is not going to get an adult very far. Dairy products do make it easier, if you can handle them, but one still needs to think about it.

[David N. Snyder]

I don't know anyone who only eats one orange a day. That was just an example of how even one small orange contains protein. Of course, with a well-varied vegan or vegetarian diet, there will be plenty of protein.

See: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

The link is about vegan diets, with lacto-ovo, it would be even easier.

[Yudron]

I don't know anyone who only eats one orange a day. That was just an example of how even one small orange contains protein. Of course, with a well-varied vegan or vegetarian diet, there will be plenty of protein.

See: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

The link is about vegan diets, with lacto-ovo, it would be even easier.

If you look at that menu you can see that care is being taken to include high protein veg sources at every meal, and at every snack, which is what I recommend. That's what I am talking about--taking care, and having knowledge. If soy does not agree with you, then much more work is required for a vegan.

The problem I see with poo-pooing protein requirements is that people think they can pay no attention to getting protein at each meal and snack and be fine. Hence, you see the crabby young vegans who look like walking zombies. We have plenty of them here in the San Francisco Bay area.

But, hey! I highly recommend being a vegetarian to people who can tolerate soy and preferably wheat gluten--for the sake of one's own mind of compassion.

[David N. Snyder]

Hence, you see the crabby young vegans who look like walking zombies. We have plenty of them here in the San Francisco Bay area.

But, hey! I highly recommend being a vegetarian to people who can tolerate soy and preferably wheat gluten--for the sake of one's own mind of compassion.

[PorkChop]

I'm a vegetarian, and almost vegan because I am dairy intolerant. I'm not critical of others who are not. I am of the opinion that many vegetarians and vegans eat too little protein, including myself when I forget to think about having a good source of protein at every meal. If you plan and are aware of protein intake, most people can succeed as a vgetarian. Many people stop being vegetarians because they don't eat enough protein (especially men and tall muscular women, or people who are allergic to soy, or soy and wheat gluten) and so they don't feel good. Too little protein intake can cause over indulgence in Carbs, and that can easily lead to obesity for middle aged vegetarians.

People who can eat dairy can get a lot of protein from yogurt. Obviously there are many sources of vegetable protein, mostly beans, and no one is going to eat soy three times a day.

My point is simply that we have to think about it. For example, at Dharma centers they commonly serve delicious veggie dishes with veggies and noodles and little bits of tofu mixed together, that are totally inadequate sources of protein, and leave people thinking they could never survive as a vegetarian. You can definitely be satisfied as a vegetarian--but you need to each much more of the veg protein source than you would meat. So you have to learn new eating habits to make it work.

I use nuts, seeds and unsweetened soy yogurt with stevia as quick sources of protein between meals. But too many nuts lead to obesity, so mindfulness is needed.

Recommended Dietary Allowance for Protein (U.S. Centers for Disease Control)
Grams of protein
needed each day
Children ages 1 – 3 13
Children ages 4 – 8 19
Children ages 9 – 13 34
Girls ages 14 – 18 46
Boys ages 14 – 18 52
Women ages 19 – 70+ 46
Men ages 19 – 70+ 56

Amount of protein in tofu (one of the best veg sources of protein:)

One half-cup serving of raw firm tofu contains 10.1 grams of protein. A half-cup of tofu is approximately 4 oz by weight, or just under 1/3 of the average sized 14 oz package of tofu. By comparison, 1/2 cup dairy milk contains 5.1 grams of protein, one 3 oz egg contains 6 grams and 4 oz ground beef contains about 26 grams of protein.

Main point: There is almost three times the amount of protein in beef as in tofu so the number of ounces served should be greater for tofu than beef.

Lots of good info, thanks!

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

[gyougan]

I think it's safe to say that we don't need meat. But fish is a completely different thing.

I was vegan for many years and had no trouble getting enough protein. Protein is not the problem. But I recently started eating oily fish and taking cod liver oil and honestly I feel much better.

I could never kill a cow or pig with my own hands. But killing fish for my well-being is something that I can tolerate.

[kirtu]

I think it's safe to say that we don't need meat. But fish is a completely different thing.

I was vegan for many years and had no trouble getting enough protein. Protein is not the problem. But I recently started eating oily fish and taking cod liver oil and honestly I feel much better.

I'm pretty sure that most of these oils have a plant based analogue.

Kirt

[gyougan]

I think it's safe to say that we don't need meat. But fish is a completely different thing.

I was vegan for many years and had no trouble getting enough protein. Protein is not the problem. But I recently started eating oily fish and taking cod liver oil and honestly I feel much better.

I'm pretty sure that most of these oils have a plant based analogue.

Kirt

Flax seed oil, which is the usual plant based substitute for fish oils, didn't have the same impact at all.

[Yudron]

I think it's safe to say that we don't need meat. But fish is a completely different thing.

I was vegan for many years and had no trouble getting enough protein. Protein is not the problem. But I recently started eating oily fish and taking cod liver oil and honestly I feel much better.

I'm pretty sure that most of these oils have a plant based analogue.

Kirt

Flax seed oil, which is the usual plant based substitute for fish oils, didn't have the same impact at all.

Nice to hear about your experience. I love flax powder myself, but everyone is different.

[Thrasymachus]

@Yudron:
Animal based proteins are the most unhealthy proteins you can consume and it is also greatly exaggerated how much protein people need:

Animal vs. Plant Protein

...

Animal proteins also have a higher concentration of sulphur containing amino acids that get metabolized to acid-generating metabolites. As a result, a slightly lower physiological pH must be corrected and buffers like calcium are used to attenuate these adverse acid effects--to the disadvantage of the host. [READ: EATING ANIMAL PROTEINS LEADS TO OSTEOPOROSIS!]

...

My point is that, beginning with the discovery of protein in 1839 until the present day, we have virtually revered this nutrient and as a result have made sure that our more general thoughts about nutrition and health had to fit this paradigm. This was especially true when protein was considered--and still is considered by many--to be mostly found in animal-based foods. In the early years, protein meant meat and meat meant protein. Thus, much of the reverence for protein really was a reverence for meat.

We clearly showed that of all the chemical carcinogens tested in the government's chemical carcinogenesis testing program--and using the traditional criteria to decide what is a carcinogen--casein (and very likely most other animal based proteins) was the most relevant. ...

...

So, a debate about protein (mostly from animal based foods) should be a broader topic beyond the evidence, although the evidence itself is enough to be convincing.

I should also add that the focus on the hazards of saturated fat and cholesterol (in animal food, of course) as the chronic heart disease culprit came about historically because it was possible to reduce the intake of these components without reducing the intake of the animal food itself. Just take out some of the fat (leaving skim milk, leans cuts of meat, etc.). But removing the protein cannot be done; it would no longer even look like animal food. Thus, there has been tremendous pressure over the years not to venture into questioning animal based protein--it means sacrificing animal foods.

Your advice is very bad and outdated. Not only is it showing lack of compassion to eat animals but also to your human friends, family and paid caretakers. My grandma is personally ruining my life and that of her immediate family with all the secondary complications from her constant animal protein consumption which always includes coffee with milk and feta cheese, with bleached flour bread in the morning. This applies to vegetarians as well, since it is an almost useless term, what matters is how much animal proteins you are consuming or not. Yet funny enough she still has osteoporosis, despite all the ignorant mainstream propaganda: "milk builds strong bones"! Many meat eaters do the same to their relatives. It is also disingenuous to live in a country of fat cows like the USA who average 1.5x the body mass they should have, and take many medications due to the chronic problems associated with meat eating, and wax lyrical about:

I see a lot of sick, irritable vegans from protein malnutrition

Credibility just jumped out the window and fell to its death. I think what you and others perceive as sickness is seeing a population of people at a more normal bodyweight, which paradoxically seems unhealthy to Americans who are just simply huge and always looking to diet down with the next fad method.

@Porkchop:
Ok, you are being more than a little disingenuous. After checking some of the other links you gave before I know what you are doing. You are likely following a Paleo diet and two of those links were written by Loren Cordain, the founder of the Paleo fad diet. I know alot about this fad, it is what my selfish brother follows and it fits him as it allows him to pretend he is healthy, while actually eating more unhealthy than ever! That is what most people do who say they are into health, they pretend they are healthy by following fad advice that allows them to consider their unhealthy habits as healthy, rather than making any real changes. Paleo is fairly easy for most people compared to say veganism: you already eat meat, so just add grain phobia. Eat a hamburger without a wheat or bleached flour based patty, it is simple and requires little change of habit. Paleo gurus are very selfish, insular and ego oriented. For a counter example, Gary Null, whose vegan dietary advice I follow the most, here put up a video about poverty in America, and another about homeless Gulf War veterans.

What you are saying you are doing is called the French paradox. The French eat many unhealthy foods, but they don't have as many chronic care problems as Americans, simply because of portion control. However, if you are constantly going hungry to control your weight, how long will that last? Most people become overweight in the first place due to lack of discipline and by eating too many animal based foods(including cheese, and milk). If you eat a majority of real plant foods, equaling to over 90% of total calories, you can eat till your full and still lose weight. However given your histrionics in calling Tofurky vomit inducing, when I only see Steve-O on tv inducing vomit on command, and even then only after swallowing a live goldfish and the choice of the nickname Porkchop, I have a feeling things are all about taste preference above all for you.

@gyougan:
To say your exaggerating would be an understatement. If people could feel such micro-changes in their body, how would so many millions be able to smoke, do drugs both illicit and prescribed, eat a meat heavy diet, eat corn syrup, eat GMOs, etc.? Sadly people cannot feel micro-changes and everytime someone makes a statement like you do, I seriously doubt their credibility. The world would be a totally different place if what you are saying was true, and sadly it is isn't so.

It is well known that fish oil has huge problems of rancidity and oxidization:

Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

...

He and colleague, Dr Carlene McLean, have studied commercially available fish oil in New Zealand, that’s been manufactured overseas. They found it contains varying levels of primary and secondary oxidation products.

“These oxidised products result in variations in the quality of fish oils and may explain the mixed results in international human clinical trials investigating omega 3 health benefits” Dr McLean said.

Recent results from international cellular, animal and human trials indicate that the oxidised products in fish oils may have potential carcinogenic and pro-inflammatory actions. These products have the potential to increase the risk of atherosclerosis and thrombosis and reduce the potential benefits of omega-3 fatty acids.

Dr Turner says that unfortunately, fish oils containing omega-3 fatty acids are unstable and more vulnerable to oxidation than vegetable oils or other animal fats. When fish oils come into contact with oxygen and are exposed to metals, light and heat they degrade. Oxidation of the oil accelerates after extraction from the fish and during subsequent storage."

...

Not only that but likely in my lifetime global fish populations will collapse from the extreme overfishing that bigger ships, several miles long nets and factory fish farms that patrol the oceans have unleashed.

[PorkChop]

Relax, we're not all out to get you dude.

I don't consciously follow paleo (I love potatoes & beans too much to consider that).
Like I said, some of my food may fall within paleo guidelines, but it's not by design - zedrics.com if you're interested.
I'm fine with my 3 meals a day meal plan and have been fine with it since February, no hunger pains, lots of energy (more than enough for a grueling training camp).
Do I really need to photocopy my blood work from a couple months back to show that I'm healthy?
It was when I went vegetarian for almost 2 weeks that I became super hungry.
Every Sunday that I don't eat meat, by the evening I'm starving and end up snacking on unhealthy stuff.

As far as the research papers, half were directly from pubmed, the other half a mix of indirectly through pubmed and a web search.
Loren Cordain's a PhD.
Gary Null's a PhD.
They don't agree... so what, big hairy fat deal.
No need to throw accusations.
I have no idea how selfishness, poverty, and gulf war veterans suddenly became relevant to this conversation.
This is not a conspiracy and I'm not towing a paleo party line, sorry.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about with the Steve-O thing.
My nickname is from kung fu...
FYI, the tofurky I had was oven roasted deli slices.
Some fake meat products are passable, some are not so good, those slices were the worst yet.
I generally like morning star fake chicken, veggie burgers, soy "pork" eggrolls, and veggie tamales.
In addition to the lunch meat, I tend to stay away from veggie chorizo and some of the sausages.
As far as taste preference, am I just supposed to eat food that tastes bad my whole life?
I suppose if I have some sort of nondual realization, I could be perfectly happy eating horse sh!t the rest of my life, but I'm definitely not there yet.

You do what works for you, I'm going to do what works for me.
I understand maybe there are some ethical concerns with the way I eat.
I'm doing what I can and I'll take personal responsibility for the outcomes.
With all due respect, it's not really your call to make whether what I'm doing is enough.

[Yudron]

Thracymachus,

My advice above is to be a vegetarian if you can. I'm a vegetarian. Vegans have been arguing that we need less protein than mainstream science says we need for at least 30 years. Based on my observations of some vegans I've known over the long term, how many of them have had chronic pain conditions, weakness, a sense of unwellness, and generalized irritability, all of which resolved when they started eating a little meat, I now advocate following the mainstream recommendations for protein intake. I myself had prolonged pain and delayed wound healing after recent major surgery, and could not tolerate legumes at that time--as soon as I ate a little chicken I healed up. Then I could resume a vegetarian diet.

On the other hand, my brother became vegan after being a vegetarian--who loved cheese--for about 50 years and his longstanding problem with high cholesterol cleared up and he feels much better in general. Also, a lot of people cannot digest dairy, especially as we get older. I never drank milk or ate cheese because it disagreed with me, then I had chronic constipation in retreat, and eliminated butter, ghee, and yogurt, and it completely cleared up. But, there are people who tolerate dairy products just fine.

Free-range organic eggs--the really expensive kind--are a part of my diet. Excellent snack food for me.

[Thrasymachus]

@Porkchop:
Make no mistake, if you or anyone makes nonsense health claims for eating meat, they will be answered, because %100, there are zero health claims you can make for eating meat, other animal products like milk, or following paleo or other fad diets meant to shoehorn meat eating into weight loss, since for so many people it makes them blow up in weight. Like I said before there are arguments you can make for eating meat, like:
1) Imperialism - you cannot find a calorie source to consume that takes more input resources or more land. In societies like ours it is very vaunted to waste alot of resources and display how much you can waste compared to others.
2) Apathy, lack of concern, selfishness.
3) Taste preference.
4) Comfort. It is what you are used to, available everywhere, and you don't want to change.

But there is no health benefit to eating meat, and animal products in general(like vegetarianism allows) only downsides. And every dietary guru or authority is not the same, the Paleo people are simply spreading dangerous advice for the people that follow it, get ill health and for the animals that suffer. What is more, all Paleo gurus are wrong on their anthropology, archeology, history and dietary advice, they are wrong on everything.

@Yudron:
That sounds like nonsense again. Make no mistake, everything you write about how concerned everyone needs to be with adequate protein is nonsense, the average Westerner gets far too much protein and too few carbs. Once again so everyone can be perfectly clear, this is the country you live in and the results of the dominant, animal product heavy diet:

Prescription Drug Use Continues to Increase: U.S. Prescription Drug Data for 2007-2008

Over the last 10 years, the percentage of Americans who took at least one prescription drug in the past month increased from 44% to 48%. The use of two or more drugs increased from 25% to 31%. The use of five or more drugs increased from 6% to 11%.

So how can you live in such a society, ignore all the overweight and unhealthy people and come here and create scare mongering against vegans who are far healthier than their counterparts? Unless you are talking of raw food vegan fad-ists, I don't see how you can maintain what you do. Further you are ignorant of all the research that has been done about meat and dairy. Thus you have to talk about how much animal products one consumes, not whether one is vegetarian or not, because that means nothing in terms of suffering or health. For example when I went vegetarian I may have been killing even more animals than when I didn't with all the eggs, cheese and milk I consumed.

Also animal products and meat will increase recovery time for surgery: meat promotes inflammation and acidity in the body. But then again you say you are vegetarian, which means nothing in terms of this, you can still be vegetarian and consume copious animal products.

[nilakantha]

I find it odd that bodily health should be much of a concern at all for a Buddhist. I would think that our primary concern should be with Dharma as presented in scripture. In the Jātakamālā the importance of vegetarianism, even at the cost of health, is dealt with:
Once the Bodhisattva, it is said, lived in some part of the forest as a young quail. He had come out of the egg some nights before, and could not fly, his tender wings having still to grow both in height and in width; in his very small and weak body the different limbs, principal and minor, were hardly discernible. So he dwelt with his numerous brothers in the nest which his parents had built with great care and made impervious by a strong covering of grass. This nest was placed on a creeper within a thicket. Yet, still in this existence, he had not lost his consciousness of the Law, and would not feed on such living beings as his father and mother offered to them, but exclusively sustained himself by (the vegetable food) which was brought by his parents: grass-seeds, figs of the banyan tree, and so on. In consequence of this coarse and insufficient nourishment, his body did not thrive nor would his wings develop. The other young quails, on the contrary, who fed on everything offered to them, became strong and got full-grown wings. For this, indeed, is an invariable rule:
1. He who, not anxious about the precepts of the Law, eats everything, will thrive at his ease, but such a one as seeks for his livelihood in accordance with the precepts, and is careful about the choice of his food, will endure pain in this world.

[Thrasymachus]

Personally I don't like the escapist types who maintain:
If I can sit and meditate, who cares about everything and everyone else.

Anyway if you follow the people who maintain that for enough, you find that like any other Westerner, they believe in obeying the laws of the state, the medical system, etc., so it is moot anyway.