Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:33 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3669 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106 ... 184  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 2845
Zealot wrote:

So are you saying that the life of one turkey is less valuable than the lives of a couple hundred or thousand insects? Or more valuable? I'm confused.

I can understand your confusion, as value has nothing to do with what I was saying.
In fact, there is no value in any of what I posted.

But since you brought it up,
I suppose it is a comparison between causing of one being to suffer,
and causing millions of beings to suffer.
Zealot wrote:

In the book Im reading right now, The Words of My Perfect Teacher

That is such a GREAT BOOK!
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Posts: 272
Location: Dover, NJ
@PadmaVonSamba:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
I am going more vegetarian every day.

I am glad you are able to make a joke out of the intense suffering and deaths of billions of beings for no reason other than: taste preference, displaying domination, displaying the most conspicuous consumption from the most wasteful possible food source in terms of inputs put in. However, you keep arguing for and creating apologia for meat eating, so I doubt the sincerity of all your allusions to vegetarianism.

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
However, to grow all of that stuff, millions of beings were killed.
Let's not kid ourselves!!!
To eat turkey meat, well, you only have to kill one creature...the turkey.
Or you could just amputate the legs and just eat them I suppose,
and then the turkey wouldn't have to die.


Or you could just eat an apple or something, which unlike eating a Turkey leg, benefits the tree if you don't do it like imperialist modern peoples. Before toilets and abstracted civilization if I ate an apple, walked a bit, I will eventually poop. That poop will give the seed of the apple fertilizer and a chance to spread. However human meat eating is nothing like that, human hunters unlike real carnivores use projectiles and chase after the healthiest of the herd or species if possible, not the weakest, smallest and most sickly, like real carnivores do, improving herd health. Let us not kid ourselves with your fictions. Turkeys require plant sources to feed them which also involves the land base this takes up. Farming those plants sources kills even more beings, and prevents more beings from access to a unfettered land base, since humans will destroy all species that interfere with their farming. But that is beside the point, what you are doing is trying to guilt vegans and vegetarians as I pointed out before to you in this thread:
Thrasymachus wrote:
1.) You cannot do the impossible, so don't do the possible.
Basically this argument maintains that since even eating plant foods involves killing insects and micro-organisms, that the meat abstainers are no different or better. But trying to do the impossible always results in failure. Does this mean we should not do what is possible in terms of saving lives? Does that sound a very compassionate or enlightened argument? It sounds like a very bad excuse to bring down the bar of ethics and compassion to satisfy the attachment of those with certain taste preferences.


Which brings us to:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
I was responding to the statement "...but no animals had to die"


Do you have trouble understanding what an animal is and isn't? Do you know the difference between doing what is humanely possible in one's capacities like not eating animals, and guilt tripping people for not doing the impossible: harming no beings at all while being alive? Everyone may as well just do nothing just to make everyone else feel good about their extreme disconnection to their consumption choices.

PorkChop wrote:
Oh I know... Tofurkey is the nastiest stuff I've ever eaten.

There are actually peoples who have eaten raw meat extensively. The Mongols of the steppes and Turkic tribes used to take raw meat, put it under the saddle and eat it while rampaging to battle on horseback. The Comanche tribe had similar practices. That behavior almost universally disgusts most human cultures throughout history and induces real vomit. On the contrary I have seen many so called carnivores and omnivores disgusted by raw meat, and lament how good soy and wheat disguised as meat can taste.

The article you posted mis-attributed the fact that animal remains -- bones were found and imputed something about plant foods. If you bury animals, their bones can remain a long time and preserve better, but if you bury a sack of potatoes with the same weight it will just return to the earth by decomposition unless it fossilizes somehow. So it is not strange that mostly animal remains can be found. However that is not what the latest research points to:
Scientific American: Human Ancestors Were Nearly All Vegetarians

Are you even serious about the last paragraph? If you do something for one day out of seven, is that even giving it a shot? How is that even logistically possible? Most people cook more than enough for one or two meals. I don't understand how you can have this nice compartment where you just go vegetarian for one day or how it could be considered even trying. Alot of Americans always fight the battle of the bulge. I got news from you(I should create a thread about it infact), if you get a small minority of calories from animal sources(which have excess calories from fat and protein), that is not an issue. My family were all poor rural Greeks and before they were rich enough to afford meat, no one was overweight. Now Greeks are the fattest population in Europe thanks largely to the rat race of affluence that allowed them to consume many animal products! Alot of fad diets exist like Atkins, Paleo, etc. to try to use unhealthy tricks like carbohydrate starvation to induce ketosis and meld meat consumption with temporary weight loss at the cost of long term health. I have a feeling that is what you are alluding to. But if one simply eats 90% or greater calories from whole plant foods, they are not only healthy but avoiding the need to play such games or use such tricks.

@Zealot:
I used to think like that before going vegetarian, but I realized something:
If you eat meat under any circumstances you are no longer an example of an alternative for others. However if you refuse to eat meat those who care for you and love you will cook and eat more vegan or vegetarian meals themselves. So if you are strict, it radiates outwards. If you make exceptions it creates implosions inwards.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm
Posts: 888
Thrasymachus wrote:
@PadmaVonSamba:
PorkChop wrote:
Oh I know... Tofurkey is the nastiest stuff I've ever eaten.

There are actually peoples who have eaten raw meat extensively.

Raw meat's fine, Tofurkey's nasty.
Actually the Mongols et al would saddle-cook their meat - putting the meat in a pouch in the saddle, thus applying low heat for long periods of time.
I hear it tastes pretty good.

Quote:
The article you posted mis-attributed the fact that animal remains -- bones were found and imputed something about plant foods. If you bury animals, their bones can remain a long time and preserve better, but if you bury a sack of potatoes with the same weight it will just return to the earth by decomposition unless it fossilizes somehow. So it is not strange that mostly animal remains can be found. However that is not what the latest research points to:
Scientific American: Human Ancestors Were Nearly All Vegetarians


Not a big fan of the article (way too much about modern primates), but the study he quotes on Neanderthals is very interesting!
They tested a bunch of 1mm^2 samples of Neanderthal teeth from El Sidron and found only small (almost nonexistent) evidence for meat eaten, but lots of evidence for cooked veggies & starches - even some medicine.
Thing is the bones (not the teeth) of various Neanderthal remains do show signs of a meat diet and in one of the articles I posted they describe that even the animal bones from El Sidron show signs of butchering. The study does admit that while the tooth wear of the teeth at El Sidron was more indicative of a plant diet, the tooth wear of the teeth at Gorham's Cave was more indicative of a carnivorous diet.
Funny enough, the study shows that humans have adapted to eat starchy foods from those times, which flies in the face of a lot of nutrition folks who say "starch is da debbil!". :twisted:
I'm not sure I agree with the study skipping the findings of Adult 5 and Juvenile 1, maybe the findings didn't fit their hypothesis?
Cool find tho!

Quote:
Are you even serious about the last paragraph?

Think I made a month in 2006 but felt sick the whole time.
Only lasted 12 days this year and gained over 10 pounds in that time, but at least didn't feel sick, just very, very hungry.
The sundays thing was an attempt to sneak up on it, but it's proving not to be worth it.
Heard a monk tell me that you'll go to a hell at least once if you eat meat.... guess I'll be sayin' "hi" to Ksitigarbha for you folks. :hi:

My "normal diet" meals are planned by a dietician and cooked by a local, award-winning chef.
I get between roughly 400 and 600 kcals a meal, 3 meals a day.
I lose weight via calorie & portion restriction, not ketosis.
Some of the dishes may qualify as "paleo" but not quite as meat-heavy as you're probably thinking, it's more because of the absence of grains.
Lots of fresh, organic veggies, with reasonable meat portions.
It works for me, and has worked very well since February - my doctor was quite impressed.
It's when I go off it or am not consistent that I start having issues.
Think I'm just going to stick with what works and take what comes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 2845
Thrasymachus wrote:
@PadmaVonSamba:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
I am going more vegetarian every day.

I am glad you are able to make a joke out of the intense suffering and deaths of billions of beings for no reason other than: taste preference, displaying domination, displaying the most conspicuous consumption from the most wasteful possible food source in terms of inputs put in. However, you keep arguing for and creating apologia for meat eating, so I doubt the sincerity of all your allusions to vegetarianism.


I am not arguing that eating meat is better.
All I am saying is that just because a person doesn't eat meat,
they shouldn't assume that they are not killing beings through their food consumption.
Vegetarians are not (to use a butcher's term) "off the hook".

If one assumes that because they are not eating meat
that they are somehow better than a person who eats meat,
what a big ego trip that is!

I was a strict vegetarian for 16 years
Now, I eat what is being served.
If it is a bit of meat, do you really think that the pig or cow or bird it once was
is still dwelling in that?
Where does the "being" of the animal exist?

Two issues are at hand.
Meat eating as a socio-environmental & economic issue
and meat eating as it relates to dharma practice.
Both are important, and one might show that they are related
but they are not the same topic.

It is only when I chew and swallow that I sometimes eat meat.
During the other 99% of my day, I don't eat meat.
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 2845
When I cook for myself, I eat tofu.
But I live in a house where I cook for people who eat meat.
When there are leftovers, I eat the meat that would otherwise get thrown out.
Does this meet your high moral standards?
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:27 pm
Posts: 196
Zealot wrote:
We can try to minimize it by altering our diet from meat to vegetarian, but even that kills insects and likely other small mammals like those posts farmers often kill when seen near their crops.


Sure, but isn't the point to minimise harm? And in any case feeding grain to people is far more efficient than feeding the grain to animals and then eating the animals.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm
Posts: 888
porpoise wrote:
Zealot wrote:
We can try to minimize it by altering our diet from meat to vegetarian, but even that kills insects and likely other small mammals like those posts farmers often kill when seen near their crops.


Sure, but isn't the point to minimise harm? And in any case feeding grain to people is far more efficient than feeding the grain to animals and then eating the animals.


Not to be difficult, but do you think you could run the numbers for the amount of grains an animal would eat in its lifetime to feed x number of people for x amount of time (the meat from most animals is more than a single meal for a single person) vs the amount of grains x number of people for x amount of time?
I mean if you're going to make the claim that it is "far more efficient", it's not unreasonable to provide facts...
Otherwise, it's just pure speculation...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: Sunny California
I'm a vegetarian, and almost vegan because I am dairy intolerant. I'm not critical of others who are not. I am of the opinion that many vegetarians and vegans eat too little protein, including myself when I forget to think about having a good source of protein at every meal. If you plan and are aware of protein intake, most people can succeed as a vgetarian. Many people stop being vegetarians because they don't eat enough protein (especially men and tall muscular women, or people who are allergic to soy, or soy and wheat gluten) and so they don't feel good. Too little protein intake can cause over indulgence in Carbs, and that can easily lead to obesity for middle aged vegetarians.

People who can eat dairy can get a lot of protein from yogurt. Obviously there are many sources of vegetable protein, mostly beans, and no one is going to eat soy three times a day.

My point is simply that we have to think about it. For example, at Dharma centers they commonly serve delicious veggie dishes with veggies and noodles and little bits of tofu mixed together, that are totally inadequate sources of protein, and leave people thinking they could never survive as a vegetarian. You can definitely be satisfied as a vegetarian--but you need to each much more of the veg protein source than you would meat. So you have to learn new eating habits to make it work.

I use nuts, seeds and unsweetened soy yogurt with stevia as quick sources of protein between meals. But too many nuts lead to obesity, so mindfulness is needed.

Recommended Dietary Allowance for Protein (U.S. Centers for Disease Control)
Grams of protein
needed each day
Children ages 1 – 3 13
Children ages 4 – 8 19
Children ages 9 – 13 34
Girls ages 14 – 18 46
Boys ages 14 – 18 52
Women ages 19 – 70+ 46
Men ages 19 – 70+ 56

Amount of protein in tofu (one of the best veg sources of protein:)

One half-cup serving of raw firm tofu contains 10.1 grams of protein. A half-cup of tofu is approximately 4 oz by weight, or just under 1/3 of the average sized 14 oz package of tofu. By comparison, 1/2 cup dairy milk contains 5.1 grams of protein, one 3 oz egg contains 6 grams and 4 oz ground beef contains about 26 grams of protein.

Main point: There is almost three times the amount of protein in beef as in tofu so the number of ounces served should be greater for tofu than beef.

_________________
My blog:
http://onsausalcreek.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:45 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Posts: 2107
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Protein is virtually in all foods. Even fruit, such as an orange has one gram of protein in it. :o

A healthy vegan diet and especially a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet provides plenty of protein. In fact most people in developed countries eat too much protein, both vegetarian and omnivore groups. The health problems in developed countries is not over any deficiencies, but rather excess; the excess fats, oils, and protein, leading to heart disease, obesity, cancers, etc.

_________________
Image
www.TheDhamma.com/
Dhamma Wiki encyclopedia
Dhamma Wheel forum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: Sunny California
David N. Snyder wrote:
Protein is virtually in all foods. Even fruit, such as an orange has one gram of protein in it. :o

A healthy vegan diet and especially a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet provides plenty of protein. In fact most people in developed countries eat too much protein, both vegetarian and omnivore groups. The health problems in developed countries is not over any deficiencies, but rather excess; the excess fats, oils, and protein, leading to heart disease, obesity, cancers, etc.


I just disagree with you about this David. I see a lot of sick, irritable vegans from protein malnutrition, and lot of good hearted Buddhists who sincerely try to be veggies and give up. These same people can be healthy and happy vegetarians, or even vegans, if they eat more veg protein. A gram of protein is not going to get an adult very far. Dairy products do make it easier, if you can handle them, but one still needs to think about it.

_________________
My blog:
http://onsausalcreek.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:58 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Posts: 2107
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
I don't know anyone who only eats one orange a day. That was just an example of how even one small orange contains protein. Of course, with a well-varied vegan or vegetarian diet, there will be plenty of protein.

See: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

The link is about vegan diets, with lacto-ovo, it would be even easier.

_________________
Image
www.TheDhamma.com/
Dhamma Wiki encyclopedia
Dhamma Wheel forum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: Sunny California
:offtopic:
David N. Snyder wrote:
I don't know anyone who only eats one orange a day. That was just an example of how even one small orange contains protein. Of course, with a well-varied vegan or vegetarian diet, there will be plenty of protein.

See: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

The link is about vegan diets, with lacto-ovo, it would be even easier.


If you look at that menu you can see that care is being taken to include high protein veg sources at every meal, and at every snack, which is what I recommend. That's what I am talking about--taking care, and having knowledge. If soy does not agree with you, then much more work is required for a vegan.

The problem I see with poo-pooing protein requirements is that people think they can pay no attention to getting protein at each meal and snack and be fine. Hence, you see the crabby young vegans who look like walking zombies. We have plenty of them here in the San Francisco Bay area.

But, hey! I highly recommend being a vegetarian to people who can tolerate soy and preferably wheat gluten--for the sake of one's own mind of compassion.

_________________
My blog:
http://onsausalcreek.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:28 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Posts: 2107
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Yudron wrote:
Hence, you see the crabby young vegans who look like walking zombies. We have plenty of them here in the San Francisco Bay area.


:lol:

Yudron wrote:
But, hey! I highly recommend being a vegetarian to people who can tolerate soy and preferably wheat gluten--for the sake of one's own mind of compassion.


:thumbsup:

_________________
Image
www.TheDhamma.com/
Dhamma Wiki encyclopedia
Dhamma Wheel forum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm
Posts: 888
Yudron wrote:
I'm a vegetarian, and almost vegan because I am dairy intolerant. I'm not critical of others who are not. I am of the opinion that many vegetarians and vegans eat too little protein, including myself when I forget to think about having a good source of protein at every meal. If you plan and are aware of protein intake, most people can succeed as a vgetarian. Many people stop being vegetarians because they don't eat enough protein (especially men and tall muscular women, or people who are allergic to soy, or soy and wheat gluten) and so they don't feel good. Too little protein intake can cause over indulgence in Carbs, and that can easily lead to obesity for middle aged vegetarians.

People who can eat dairy can get a lot of protein from yogurt. Obviously there are many sources of vegetable protein, mostly beans, and no one is going to eat soy three times a day.

My point is simply that we have to think about it. For example, at Dharma centers they commonly serve delicious veggie dishes with veggies and noodles and little bits of tofu mixed together, that are totally inadequate sources of protein, and leave people thinking they could never survive as a vegetarian. You can definitely be satisfied as a vegetarian--but you need to each much more of the veg protein source than you would meat. So you have to learn new eating habits to make it work.

I use nuts, seeds and unsweetened soy yogurt with stevia as quick sources of protein between meals. But too many nuts lead to obesity, so mindfulness is needed.

Recommended Dietary Allowance for Protein (U.S. Centers for Disease Control)
Grams of protein
needed each day
Children ages 1 – 3 13
Children ages 4 – 8 19
Children ages 9 – 13 34
Girls ages 14 – 18 46
Boys ages 14 – 18 52
Women ages 19 – 70+ 46
Men ages 19 – 70+ 56

Amount of protein in tofu (one of the best veg sources of protein:)

One half-cup serving of raw firm tofu contains 10.1 grams of protein. A half-cup of tofu is approximately 4 oz by weight, or just under 1/3 of the average sized 14 oz package of tofu. By comparison, 1/2 cup dairy milk contains 5.1 grams of protein, one 3 oz egg contains 6 grams and 4 oz ground beef contains about 26 grams of protein.

Main point: There is almost three times the amount of protein in beef as in tofu so the number of ounces served should be greater for tofu than beef.


:good:
Lots of good info, thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm
Posts: 1014
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:37 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Helsinki, Finland
I think it's safe to say that we don't need meat. But fish is a completely different thing.

I was vegan for many years and had no trouble getting enough protein. Protein is not the problem. But I recently started eating oily fish and taking cod liver oil and honestly I feel much better.

I could never kill a cow or pig with my own hands. But killing fish for my well-being is something that I can tolerate.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:56 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
gyougan wrote:
I think it's safe to say that we don't need meat. But fish is a completely different thing.

I was vegan for many years and had no trouble getting enough protein. Protein is not the problem. But I recently started eating oily fish and taking cod liver oil and honestly I feel much better.


I'm pretty sure that most of these oils have a plant based analogue.

Kirt

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:37 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Helsinki, Finland
kirtu wrote:
gyougan wrote:
I think it's safe to say that we don't need meat. But fish is a completely different thing.

I was vegan for many years and had no trouble getting enough protein. Protein is not the problem. But I recently started eating oily fish and taking cod liver oil and honestly I feel much better.


I'm pretty sure that most of these oils have a plant based analogue.

Kirt


Flax seed oil, which is the usual plant based substitute for fish oils, didn't have the same impact at all.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: Sunny California
gyougan wrote:
kirtu wrote:
gyougan wrote:
I think it's safe to say that we don't need meat. But fish is a completely different thing.

I was vegan for many years and had no trouble getting enough protein. Protein is not the problem. But I recently started eating oily fish and taking cod liver oil and honestly I feel much better.


I'm pretty sure that most of these oils have a plant based analogue.

Kirt


Flax seed oil, which is the usual plant based substitute for fish oils, didn't have the same impact at all.


Nice to hear about your experience. I love flax powder myself, but everyone is different.

_________________
My blog:
http://onsausalcreek.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Posts: 272
Location: Dover, NJ
@Yudron:
Animal based proteins are the most unhealthy proteins you can consume and it is also greatly exaggerated how much protein people need:
T. COLIN CAMPBELL, PHD wrote:
Animal vs. Plant Protein

...

Animal proteins also have a higher concentration of sulphur containing amino acids that get metabolized to acid-generating metabolites. As a result, a slightly lower physiological pH must be corrected and buffers like calcium are used to attenuate these adverse acid effects--to the disadvantage of the host. [READ: EATING ANIMAL PROTEINS LEADS TO OSTEOPOROSIS!]

...

My point is that, beginning with the discovery of protein in 1839 until the present day, we have virtually revered this nutrient and as a result have made sure that our more general thoughts about nutrition and health had to fit this paradigm. This was especially true when protein was considered--and still is considered by many--to be mostly found in animal-based foods. In the early years, protein meant meat and meat meant protein. Thus, much of the reverence for protein really was a reverence for meat.

We clearly showed that of all the chemical carcinogens tested in the government's chemical carcinogenesis testing program--and using the traditional criteria to decide what is a carcinogen--casein (and very likely most other animal based proteins) was the most relevant. ...

...

So, a debate about protein (mostly from animal based foods) should be a broader topic beyond the evidence, although the evidence itself is enough to be convincing.

I should also add that the focus on the hazards of saturated fat and cholesterol (in animal food, of course) as the chronic heart disease culprit came about historically because it was possible to reduce the intake of these components without reducing the intake of the animal food itself. Just take out some of the fat (leaving skim milk, leans cuts of meat, etc.). But removing the protein cannot be done; it would no longer even look like animal food. Thus, there has been tremendous pressure over the years not to venture into questioning animal based protein--it means sacrificing animal foods.


Your advice is very bad and outdated. Not only is it showing lack of compassion to eat animals but also to your human friends, family and paid caretakers. My grandma is personally ruining my life and that of her immediate family with all the secondary complications from her constant animal protein consumption which always includes coffee with milk and feta cheese, with bleached flour bread in the morning. This applies to vegetarians as well, since it is an almost useless term, what matters is how much animal proteins you are consuming or not. Yet funny enough she still has osteoporosis, despite all the ignorant mainstream propaganda: "milk builds strong bones"! Many meat eaters do the same to their relatives. It is also disingenuous to live in a country of fat cows like the USA who average 1.5x the body mass they should have, and take many medications due to the chronic problems associated with meat eating, and wax lyrical about:
Yudron wrote:
I see a lot of sick, irritable vegans from protein malnutrition

Credibility just jumped out the window and fell to its death. I think what you and others perceive as sickness is seeing a population of people at a more normal bodyweight, which paradoxically seems unhealthy to Americans who are just simply huge and always looking to diet down with the next fad method.

@Porkchop:
Ok, you are being more than a little disingenuous. After checking some of the other links you gave before I know what you are doing. You are likely following a Paleo diet and two of those links were written by Loren Cordain, the founder of the Paleo fad diet. I know alot about this fad, it is what my selfish brother follows and it fits him as it allows him to pretend he is healthy, while actually eating more unhealthy than ever! That is what most people do who say they are into health, they pretend they are healthy by following fad advice that allows them to consider their unhealthy habits as healthy, rather than making any real changes. Paleo is fairly easy for most people compared to say veganism: you already eat meat, so just add grain phobia. Eat a hamburger without a wheat or bleached flour based patty, it is simple and requires little change of habit. Paleo gurus are very selfish, insular and ego oriented. For a counter example, Gary Null, whose vegan dietary advice I follow the most, here put up a video about poverty in America, and another about homeless Gulf War veterans.

What you are saying you are doing is called the French paradox. The French eat many unhealthy foods, but they don't have as many chronic care problems as Americans, simply because of portion control. However, if you are constantly going hungry to control your weight, how long will that last? Most people become overweight in the first place due to lack of discipline and by eating too many animal based foods(including cheese, and milk). If you eat a majority of real plant foods, equaling to over 90% of total calories, you can eat till your full and still lose weight. However given your histrionics in calling Tofurky vomit inducing, when I only see Steve-O on tv inducing vomit on command, and even then only after swallowing a live goldfish and the choice of the nickname Porkchop, I have a feeling things are all about taste preference above all for you.

@gyougan:
To say your exaggerating would be an understatement. If people could feel such micro-changes in their body, how would so many millions be able to smoke, do drugs both illicit and prescribed, eat a meat heavy diet, eat corn syrup, eat GMOs, etc.? Sadly people cannot feel micro-changes and everytime someone makes a statement like you do, I seriously doubt their credibility. The world would be a totally different place if what you are saying was true, and sadly it is isn't so.

It is well known that fish oil has huge problems of rancidity and oxidization:
Crop & Food Research. wrote:
Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

...

He and colleague, Dr Carlene McLean, have studied commercially available fish oil in New Zealand, that’s been manufactured overseas. They found it contains varying levels of primary and secondary oxidation products.

“These oxidised products result in variations in the quality of fish oils and may explain the mixed results in international human clinical trials investigating omega 3 health benefits” Dr McLean said.

Recent results from international cellular, animal and human trials indicate that the oxidised products in fish oils may have potential carcinogenic and pro-inflammatory actions. These products have the potential to increase the risk of atherosclerosis and thrombosis and reduce the potential benefits of omega-3 fatty acids.

Dr Turner says that unfortunately, fish oils containing omega-3 fatty acids are unstable and more vulnerable to oxidation than vegetable oils or other animal fats. When fish oils come into contact with oxygen and are exposed to metals, light and heat they degrade. Oxidation of the oil accelerates after extraction from the fish and during subsequent storage."


...


Not only that but likely in my lifetime global fish populations will collapse from the extreme overfishing that bigger ships, several miles long nets and factory fish farms that patrol the oceans have unleashed.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3669 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106 ... 184  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: LastLegend and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group