Harsh Speech

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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:39 pm

lowlydog wrote:you seem to be suggesting a REAL FIGHT against yourself, be kind to the self it will disolve away naturally with practice.
:smile:
You cannot fight against the ego, there is nothing to fight with, you can only deal with grasping to the illusion of dualism. Harsh spech epitomises this grasping since there needs to be a "self" that expresses itself harshly and an "other" that it wishes to demean. Right speech, on the other hand, equalises "self" and "other" by recognising the suffering caused, and the negative outcomes accrued, by ones action of the speech door. Right speech aims to bring together and not to set apart.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby muni » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:45 pm

plwk wrote:Image


Guru Rinpoche: don't investigate in phenomena/others, look into own Mind, "all are there". :heart:
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby lowlydog » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:00 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:You cannot fight against the ego,


Bye.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:12 pm

You misquote me in order to prove your point???

You are quite right!

Bye!!!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Queequeg » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:45 pm

Wonderful performance art piece illustrating the danger of harsh speech. :stirthepot:

I have to suspect that this thread at least partially references an exchange in which I participated in the "Modernity Sucks" thread. Yes, I suggested that someone stop acting like a dick. That could have been directed back at me for my wise ass comments. Sometimes, there just doesn't seem any appropriate response except to try and be humorous - albeit biting humor - to respond to the kind of over-the-top rhetoric being splattered in that thread. I suppose a patient and point by point attempt at refuting would be the "right speech" approach, but sometimes a humorous barb, even if its not particularly funny, serves the same purpose. Maybe there are some other options when hot air gets blasted across a thread?

I see that we have some people who are particularly sensitive on this site.

I apologize for my part in disturbing the harmony here and will endeavor to bite my tongue in the future.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Zealot » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:20 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Dear lowlydog and zealot,
zealot wrote:I definitely think you're being an ass, greg. Or rather, in my view, your actions are ego driven and contain many examples of wrong speech.

lowlydog wrote:Now your just being rude!
Let me just inform you that you were unknowing subjects of an experiment in order to make a point, and it seems that the experiment has proven the point correct! Your reactions have just supported the notion that harsh speech brings negative consequences as a consequence of the action itself too (as stated by various enlightened beings) and that intention (as well as the other factors outlined by Ju Mipham Rinpoche) merely "colours" the extent to which the negative outcomes are generated.

You see my intention was not to irritate and anger you but to inform you, my language though...

So can we put this one to rest or do you want me to be a sneaky, underhanded, conniving (read skillful means) jerk again? :smile:
:namaste:


lowlydog wrote:Hi Greg,

Thanks for sharing the article on egoless practice, it is completely in line with the dharma according to my(not really my) experiences. :smile:


Oh greg, I love you more and more every day. Actually, my own use of harsh speech was what was the most benefit to me as well as the example set by lowlydog on how to respond. Without purity, harsh speech driven by disturbing emotions only degenerates the self. So in reality, the purity of your harsh speech made me look inside myself and develop a little more purity ... after I responded with impure harsh speech. So, yes, your harsh speech drove me to speak harshly, but it was also beneficial. So thanks :)
"My life for Aiur!" - Protoss Zealot
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Zealot » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:30 pm

http://www.animalsavingtrust.org/deer.htm
Jataka Tales: There are times when Bodhisattvas are permitted to commit the 7 non-virtuous acts of the body and speech as long as their minds are pure and free from all selfish desire. In a previous life, the Buddha was Captain Compassionate Heart, sailing with 500 merchants who were all non-returning Boddhisattvas (Boddhisattvas who had reached a level where they were no longer obliged to return to samsaric existence). An evil pirate, Dung Thungchen (Blackspear) appeared, threatening to kill them all. The Captain realized that if Dung Thungchen killed the Boddhisattvas he would have to suffer in the hells for an incalculable number of eons. Moved by an intense feeling of compassion he realized that if he killed Dung Thungchen he could save him from hell. Having no choice he then killed the pirate, and in doing so gained as much merit as would normally take 70,000 eons to achieve. On the face of it, the act was a harmful one, since the Captain was committing the act of murder, but it was done without any selfish motivation. In the short term, it saved the lives of the 500 Boddhisattvas and in the long term it saved Dung Thungchen from the sufferings of hell. In reality it was very powerful positive act.

I read this in Words of My Perfect Teacher, but this version in the footnotes is about the same.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Ayu » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:42 am

37 Practices of a Bodhisattva wrote:Thirty-fourth Practice
Harsh speech disturbs the mind of others, and our practice feels the effects of this. To abandon all coarse and vulgar language, all harsh speech, and all idle chatter is a practice of the Bodhisattva.


http://www.lightwatcher.com/ebooks/37_p ... sattva.pdf
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:00 am

Zealot wrote:I read this in Words of My Perfect Teacher, but this version in the footnotes is about the same.
Funny isn't it that there are thousands of references in the scriptures to positive acts, and everybody hones in on this one instance of "negative" actions referred to in the Jataka tales, in order to justify to themselves engaging in unwholesome actions. It never ceases to bore me! :smile:
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby muni » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:13 pm

lowlydog wrote:
muni wrote:I should for sh.t critize only myself and tests myself then there is respect for all.


Don't critisize yourself, this will cause ego to form,
Don't test yourself either, this will cause more ego to form.
Awareness and equiminity thats all.


Yes. Words, 'myself' can be translated in different ways.


Actually it seems I have not 'an' ego, there are many, so many are passing. Sometimes there are a lot at once, all chattering with each other. Always guarantee of good company by fishing thoughts.
Nature is magical, grasping mind even more, conceptions for sale. Conceptions and equanimity is gone.

Awareness or distraction. :namaste: Of course easy to say.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby muni » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:41 pm

:heart:
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Zealot » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:32 pm

To clarify, I was justifying your negative acts; mine I labeled as impure. I'm so sorry to bore you, Mr. greg.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:25 pm

Zealot wrote:To clarify, I was justifying your negative acts; mine I labeled as impure.
The difference between impure and negative being?
I'm so sorry to bore you, Mr. greg.
Don't worry so much about how I react, that's my problem! :smile:
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Zealot » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:27 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The difference between impure and negative being?

Impure is intention and negativity is action. Meaning that the purity of your negative actions brought me benefit whereas the impurity of my negativity (calling you an ass) just brought me down.
gregkavarnos wrote:Don't worry so much about how I react, that's my problem! :smile:

But if we weren't concerned about others people's states, how would we ever practice the right speech?? Reactions are valuable feedback in correcting our own actions! :yinyang:
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby wayland » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:25 pm

Some good points raised on this thread. The topic reminded me of a similar discussion I once encountered on line. A while back there a big 'thing' doing the rounds about so-called "Idiot compassion". The idea being that if you were nice to "fools", you weren't doing them any favors. I always felt like that was an excuse to be as nasty as you want but come away feeling justified. Especially as those in favor of the proposition seemed the keenest to stick the verbal boot in.

I agree with the OP. Harsh speech is wrong, no matter how it's dressed up.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:42 pm

Zealot wrote:Impure is intention and negativity is action. Meaning that the purity of your negative actions brought me benefit whereas the impurity of my negativity (calling you an ass) just brought me down.
There was nothing pure in my actions, I was just being an ass! :smile:
But if we weren't concerned about others people's states, how would we ever practice the right speech?? Reactions are valuable feedback in correcting our own actions! :yinyang:
This is very true, just that other peoples reactions are based on more than just our actions. Still, it's a pretty good gauge.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby muni » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:23 am

" I was just being an ass!"

Since nature is completely pure, 'asses' are completely pure. :tongue:

:namaste:

(ps teaching says: pure/free when no grasping mind)
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Zealot » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:48 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Zealot wrote:Impure is intention and negativity is action. Meaning that the purity of your negative actions brought me benefit whereas the impurity of my negativity (calling you an ass) just brought me down.
There was nothing pure in my actions, I was just being an ass! :smile:


So your intention was completely ego-based? Also, a little late, but what's so wrong with the Jataka tales in your mind?
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby lowlydog » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:48 am

gregkavarnos wrote:There was nothing pure in my actions, I was just being an ass! :smile:


Then the volition behind your actions was impure, you planted a bitter seed.

Harsh speech is at times necessary, but I believe you are confusing harsh speech with impure negative speech.

Harsh definition: unpleasant rough or jarring to the senses.

U Ba Khin ran a meditation campus, to attend one agreed to observe noble silence and follow the strict meditative schedule. If a student decided to break the rules and talk or did not care to meditate they just wanted to goof around, then he was known to bellow at these individuals with great intensity, these students were not only disturbing others but they were not helping themselves. Students would learn very quickly to follow the course guidlines and benifited greatly in the end. His bellows were for the students benefit not to insult them or cause them harm.

As a father I often must use harsh speech with my kids, if their actions are about to cause them danger I bellow, but to protect them from harm, not to hurt or harm them.

Zealots reaction was pure he was pointing out that you were being an ass and therefore the accumulated Karma is light. Don't confuse him by pretending your intentions had a loftier goal.

Where I come from your behavior would warrant an apology.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby lowlydog » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:52 am

muni wrote:
Actually it seems I have not 'an' ego, there are many, so many are passing. Sometimes there are a lot at once, all chattering with each other. Always guarantee of good company by fishing thoughts.
Nature is magical, grasping mind even more, conceptions for sale. Conceptions and equanimity is gone.


This is my experience as well, not one ego but many layers of ego.

Our thoughts are not our own. We must be kind to the guests in the house or they can cause us misery. :smile:
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