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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:34 pm 
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lowlydog wrote:
Infinate knowledge is of little importance compared to an ounce of experiencial wisdom. :smile:
And you believe that Tai Situpa (on his 12th incarnation), Ju Mipham (on his 3rd) and the Buddha (last spotted entering mahaparinirvana some 2500 years ago) do not possess wisdom AND infinite knowledge? That they are just making it up as they go along?

Will your egoistical delusion (currently inflated by the pride of your apparent spiritual achievements) allow you to objectively contemplate that one? Give this one a read Practising without ego-centred motivation, it'll definitely help you overcome your problem.

Give it a shot, see what comes of it. ;)
:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:06 pm 
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grinchkavarnos wrote:
Will your egoistical delusion (currently inflated by the pride of your apparent spiritual achievements) allow you to objectively contemplate that one? Give this one a read Practising without ego-centred motivation, it'll definitely help you overcome your problem.




Now your just being rude!


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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:14 pm 
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I think it is time for the discussants of this topic to take the Ariyan Silence.

Quote:
Followers, when you are gathered together do one of two things: either discourse about the teaching (dhamma) or take the ariyan silence. — MN 1.161


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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:31 pm 
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"Harsh" speech is not necessarily "wrong" speech. However, judging the practices of others who have not asked for input and who are not your students and then placing those judgements into writing on this forum seems to break many of the recommendations of the eight-fold way.

:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:39 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
What?!!! You mean you are going to take the teachings of Ju Mipham Rinpoche and Tai Situpa as more authoritative than lowlydog's meditative experiences?!!! Have you thought this through carefully or is it just a whim? :tongue:
:namaste:


gregkavarnos wrote:
lowlydog wrote:
Infinate knowledge is of little importance compared to an ounce of experiencial wisdom. :smile:
And you believe that Tai Situpa (on his 12th incarnation), Ju Mipham (on his 3rd) and the Buddha (last spotted entering mahaparinirvana some 2500 years ago) do not possess wisdom AND infinite knowledge? That they are just making it up as they go along?

Will your egoistical delusion (currently inflated by the pride of your apparent spiritual achievements) allow you to objectively contemplate that one? Give this one a read Practising without ego-centred motivation, it'll definitely help you overcome your problem.

Give it a shot, see what comes of it. ;)
:namaste:


gregkavarnos wrote:
lowlydog wrote:
From my meditative experience I have found that the mental volition behind the action is of utmost importance, no scriptures are necessary for this thank-you. I suggest you develope the ability to feel the bodily sensations at the subtlest level for yourself, and then you will also see this for yourself at the experiencial level.

Quote:
I think our practices differ greg, yours seems to have you think your way through life supressing your urges, and mine is to feel your way through life observing the sensations and emotions that arise and practice equaminity towards them.
And your knowledge of my practices arises as a consequence of your omniscience?
:namaste:


I definitely think you're being an ass, greg. Or rather, in my view, your actions are ego driven and contain many examples of wrong speech.

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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:42 pm 
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Don't worry folks. The greater woolly large-spotted dharmapalas one sees around here sometimes are harmless and even quite playful - if you let them eat you occasionally.


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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:44 pm 
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lowlydog wrote:
From my meditative experience I have found that the mental volition behind the action is of utmost importance, no scriptures are necessary for this thank-you. I suggest you develope the ability to feel the bodily sensations at the subtlest level for yourself, and then you will also see this for yourself at the experiencial level.

I think our practices differ greg, yours seems to have you think your way through life supressing your urges, and mine is to feel your way through life observing the sensations and emotions that arise and practice equaminity towards them.


To be fair, there's been some give as well as take, here.

Perhaps silence is needed...

:namaste:

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If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment


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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:26 am 
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viniketa wrote:
"Harsh" speech is not necessarily "wrong" speech. However, judging the practices of others who have not asked for input and who are not your students and then placing those judgements into writing on this forum seems to break many of the recommendations of the eight-fold way.

:namaste:


Hi viniketa,

As I stated earlier the mental volition behind the actual spoken words is of utmost importance, by the time the words have formed into sounds the process is over. If one speaks harshly but the volition is of love and compassion it matters not how these words are interpreted the seed will be one of love and compassion and will produce a sweet fruit.

If ones words are so very sweet " oh, congratulations on winning the lottery, I'm so very happy for you" but the volition behind those words is of jealousy and envy then it matters not how those words are percieved, the seed will be one of jealousy and envy and will produce a bitter fruit.

I don't think that by giving advice to others one is not following the 8-fold path.

Babbling back and forth with all of you and others on other forums is an excellent way to increase ones knowledge of the dharma, but the insights gained from meditative experience far outway this knowledge.

Hi Greg,

Thanks for sharing the article on egoless practice, it is completely in line with the dharma according to my(not really my) experiences. :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:58 am 
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lowlydog wrote:
I don't think that by giving advice to others one is not following the 8-fold path.


If practice advise is solicited, it can be helpful to others if given thoughtfully. If non-solicited, it seems to become a prescription rather than advice.

:namaste:

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If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment


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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:20 am 
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Dear lowlydog and zealot,
zealot wrote:
I definitely think you're being an ass, greg. Or rather, in my view, your actions are ego driven and contain many examples of wrong speech.

lowlydog wrote:
Now your just being rude!
Let me just inform you that you were unknowing subjects of an experiment in order to make a point, and it seems that the experiment has proven the point correct! Your reactions have just supported the notion that harsh speech brings negative consequences as a consequence of the action itself too (as stated by various enlightened beings) and that intention (as well as the other factors outlined by Ju Mipham Rinpoche) merely "colours" the extent to which the negative outcomes are generated.

You see my intention was not to irritate and anger you but to inform you, my language though...

So can we put this one to rest or do you want me to be a sneaky, underhanded, conniving (read skillful means) jerk again? :smile:
:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:21 am 
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songhill wrote:
I think it is time for the discussants of this topic to take the Ariyan Silence.

Quote:
Followers, when you are gathered together do one of two things: either discourse about the teaching (dhamma) or take the ariyan silence. — MN 1.161
We are discoursing about the teaching...
:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:24 am 
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lowlydog wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thanks for sharing the article on egoless practice, it is completely in line with the dharma according to my(not really my) experiences. :smile:
Glad to be of service! Can't go wrong with Gendeun Rinpoche, the man was a true gem!
:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:00 am 
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windsweptliberty wrote:
In a forum such as this I think right speech is absolutely crucial! There are people relying on this forum to be free of fear, hostility, and opression - that which runs rampant in most lives. And there are those that may be guided by the advice given. Those seeking refuge. Sadly, I see so much harsh speech and ocassionally even ganging up in this forum. I suggest that all those envolved in this forum speak in a way that gives rise to happiness and peace in oneself and others; And not be so certain that their own point of view, their own references, their own knowledge is the only one worthy of common courtesy. This is what I suggest. :rules:

The guideline is for oneself not to discipline others to stick to it. Wanting happiness feelings tends to wanting others behave in a way that is fabricated as a prerequsite for those happiness feelings that are appropriated as "mine". :sage:


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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:50 am 
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"The guideline is for oneself". Yes. :toilet:

Whether "others" are blaming/praising me or I do that to others, it is all own thought-fishing game.

Me is a grasped thought, others the discriminative thought by that one. Play of thought framework. Thought fighting against thoughts. To be aware of this when necessary is what need to be done. Not freezing thoughts by praise/blame games.

I should for sh.t critize only myself and tests myself then there is respect for all.

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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:57 am 
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Bravo!, muni. :tongue: :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:06 pm 
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muni wrote:
I should for sh.t critize only myself and tests myself then there is respect for all.


Don't critisize yourself, this will cause ego to form,
Don't test yourself either, this will cause more ego to form.
Awareness and equiminity thats all.


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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:03 pm 
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lowlydog wrote:
Don't critisize yourself, this will cause ego to form,
Don't test yourself either, this will cause more ego to form.
Awareness and equiminity thats all.
Criticse yourself, how else will you overcome pride?
Test yourself, how else will you realise the extent of your ignorance?
Awareness and equanimity arise from humbleness and wisdom.
;)

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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:17 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Feel free to add some excitement to the thread plwk!

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 Post subject: Re: Harsh Speech
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:29 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
lowlydog wrote:
Don't critisize yourself, this will cause ego to form,
Don't test yourself either, this will cause more ego to form.
Awareness and equiminity thats all.
Criticse yourself, how else will you overcome pride?
Test yourself, how else will you realise the extent of your ignorance?
Awareness and equanimity arise from humbleness and wisdom.
;)


How does one test ones self?

Is there a special ego meter?

you seem to be suggesting a REAL FIGHT against yourself, be kind to the self it will disolve away naturally with practice.
:smile:


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