Harsh Speech

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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Yudron » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:48 am

I'm earthy and blunt person is real life, and I had a rude awakening when I started co-facilitating a Dharma group in 2001. People were really sensitive! And, also, they had concepts about what a Dharma person should be--I guess some kind of eternally sweet nun. My roughness did not go over very well. I developed two personas, constantly watching my language and behavior in Dharma groups to match the group culture... and that culture is different depending on the lama in charge.

I've become more practiced at it now, so it does not feel so unnatural. Most of the time I do reread my posts here and mainly listen to the little tiny voice inside that says "Yudron, I know you would really like to post that, but it's going to cause problems for you."

But still, I make lots of mistakes.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Zealot » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:08 am

I have an openness and willingness to discuss anything, and I try to keep it toned to whatever the flavor of the people around me. Every morning here I make my breakfast around silent retreatants and maintain silence. Later in the day I shoot shit with my friend the ex-cop where anything goes. Each and evening I call my girlfriend and talk soft and sweet. On the forums I try to match whatever the atmosphere is. Occasionally I put on the cloak of mischief and have a little fun. I also geek out on science and tech babble. Sometimes, when online, I get into the "Somebody's wrong on the internet! I have to prove them wrong!" mindset so often prevalent on the vast interwebs (I try my hardest to avoid thinking like that, but it happens). Often times I'll get stuck in one mindset while transitioning between people and get funny looks or even offended ones; I conk myself on the head at times like those and remember my empathy.

It's that empathy that we all could use a little more of I think; I like how lowlydog does it. Sometimes you just gotta reread what you put down in this text box and rethink that delivery.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby lowlydog » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:56 am

Hey zealot,

I really like the cloak of mischief too. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:37 am

Dear lowlydog and zealot,

What a load of bullshit you guys are spouting. You have no idea what you are talking about. Your statements are complete nonsense. How about you both go off and grow a brain and maybe come back with something intelligent to say? I mean, REALLY!

Or

Dear lowlydog and zealot,

Based on my understanding of the scriptural texts, motivation/intention is only one part of the karmic equation. The action itself also plays a role in karmic outcome. I would recommend you go and study Jamgon Mipham Rinpoches Gateway to Knowledge Vol II, Chapter 9 The Truth of Origin - Karma, especially paragraph 9.36 in order to gain a better understanding of the workings of karma in regards to right speech.

So in both circumstances the intention is the same, in one I used harsh speech and in the other righ speech. You still want to tell me that ones manner of speech plays no role?

Another thing: being blunt and honest can definitely be construed as harsh speech. That is why we are taught skillful means.

"Don't wear that it makes you look fat and ugly" as opposed to "I think the other oufit was more flattering". Is one being false or devious when one chooses their words carefully? I don't think so, especialy if one is not trying to be intentionally dishonest (ie lying). Right speech does require effort. It requires one to look at what they will say and how they will say it. As Yudron pointed out: in the beginning it may seem contrived, but with a little practice taming ones speech (like taming ones other two doors) is not such a difficult task.
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Ayu » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:12 am

Where i come from "Hey, old asshole - how are you?!?" is a very warm welcome for an old and dear friend. :tongue:
But i learn not to use such terms in the writing realm.
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby lowlydog » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:43 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Dear lowlydog and zealot,

What a load of bullshit you guys are spouting. You have no idea what you are talking about. Your statements are complete nonsense. How about you both go off and grow a brain and maybe come back with something intelligent to say? I mean, REALLY!

:namaste:


Nice :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

U Ba Khin would often use harsh words to his students, but the volition behind the words was of deep love and compassion.

From my meditative experience I have found that the mental volition behind the action is of utmost importance, no scriptures are necessary for this thank-you. I suggest you develope the ability to feel the bodily sensations at the subtlest level for yourself, and then you will also see this for yourself at the experiencial level.

I think our practices differ greg, yours seems to have you think your way through life supressing your urges, and mine is to feel your way through life observing the sensations and emotions that arise and practice equaminity towards them.

metta :smile:
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby futerko » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:27 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The action itself also plays a role in karmic outcome. I would recommend you go and study Jamgon Mipham Rinpoches Gateway to Knowledge Vol II, Chapter 9 The Truth of Origin - Karma, especially paragraph 9.36 in order to gain a better understanding of the workings of karma in regards to right speech.


I can't find any mention of right speech until paragraph 9.59, are you sure you mean 9.36? I can't see how that part is relevant.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Jikan » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:31 pm

Yudron wrote:I'm earthy and blunt person is real life, and I had a rude awakening when I started co-facilitating a Dharma group in 2001. People were really sensitive! And, also, they had concepts about what a Dharma person should be--I guess some kind of eternally sweet nun. My roughness did not go over very well. I developed two personas, constantly watching my language and behavior in Dharma groups to match the group culture... and that culture is different depending on the lama in charge.

I've become more practiced at it now, so it does not feel so unnatural. Most of the time I do reread my posts here and mainly listen to the little tiny voice inside that says "Yudron, I know you would really like to post that, but it's going to cause problems for you."

But still, I make lots of mistakes.


This is my experience, too. Communicating directly has its value, and sometimes is the only recourse. Lama Inge at Padma Ling in Spokane, WA, USA has a great saying for this: "Sometimes you have to take the band-aid off the fast way." She's right. It's no use being unkind. Sometimes it's unkind to speak only in sugardrops and pixie dust. What to do?

Meanwhile, back to the OP: we're having an abstract discussion so far. Are there any instances of unneccesarily harsh speech or harmfully harsh speech here at DharmaWheel? What is the problem you'd like solved?
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:51 pm

lowlydog wrote:From my meditative experience I have found that the mental volition behind the action is of utmost importance, no scriptures are necessary for this thank-you. I suggest you develope the ability to feel the bodily sensations at the subtlest level for yourself, and then you will also see this for yourself at the experiencial level.
yawn!.jpg
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I think our practices differ greg, yours seems to have you think your way through life supressing your urges, and mine is to feel your way through life observing the sensations and emotions that arise and practice equaminity towards them.
And your knowledge of my practices arises as a consequence of your omniscience?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Tara » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:07 pm

As this thread has turned into a full blown discussion it has been moved from the "Suggestion Box" forum to "Dharma-free-for-all" forum.
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Maybe you collect a lot of important writings,
Major texts, personal instructions, private notes, whatever.
If you haven’t practiced, books won’t help you when you die.
Look at the mind – that’s my sincere advice.

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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:08 pm

futerko wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:The action itself also plays a role in karmic outcome. I would recommend you go and study Jamgon Mipham Rinpoches Gateway to Knowledge Vol II, Chapter 9 The Truth of Origin - Karma, especially paragraph 9.36 in order to gain a better understanding of the workings of karma in regards to right speech.


I can't find any mention of right speech until paragraph 9.59, are you sure you mean 9.36? I can't see how that part is relevant.
I was speaking in reference to actions in general, not right speech specifically. I was talking about intention not being the only component necessary to generate karmic outcome, that the action itself also plays a role.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Zealot » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:16 pm

Well greg, it seems to me your intention was to demonstrate harsh speech with no value or rather debasing value. Yes, of course the action itself has an effect on the karma, but there was no purity behind your harsh speech; you simply wanted to demonstrate it's uselessness. I never said that the manner of speech plays no role; I said that harsh speech can be the right speech for a teacher to a student because that's what may be needed to get the point across. In this case, harsh speech was of no value, but I certainly don't think one example proves harsh speech has no place in the right speech.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:35 pm

To me the thing is to be willing to simply accept the faults of others and ourselves. A big part of whether communication goes ok is just this stuff.

Talking on the internet about things that are important is never easy, some would argue never even worth doing.

The thing is, people can be "nice", even online and not really be nice at all, right speech is not only about external pleasantness, it is possible to be externally pleasant in a technical sense and still sow discord. I think that fundamentally a big part of right speech on a forum like this simply comes down to honesty, the closer a conversation moves towards that, the better it will be.

One thing i've found on forums (not that I am a great example by any means), if someone/something is really upsetting you, seriously just try to let it go. Unlike in real life, you can actually mute people on forums. I know some might see that as "not Buddhist", but the feature exists for a reason, people have a lot of different motivations for posting and occasionally you will come across someone that it might be best to just steer clear of interaction with, I know that sounds kind of cold..but really, this is a voluntary activity, and personally I don't think anyone is duty bound to put up with anything they can't abide when the solution is as simple as not looking at it much of the time.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:53 pm

Zealot wrote:Well greg, it seems to me your intention was to demonstrate harsh speech with no value or rather debasing value.
What other value could it possibly have?
"Harsh speech — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from harsh speech is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to unappealing sounds.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:57 pm

IMHO Mr Kavarnos is on to something peeps. Let's consider:

Image

http://books.google.com/books?id=zKBO60 ... e&q&f=true
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:10 pm

Let's also consider that according to His Eminence Tai Situ Rinpoche, "spite" is a mental factor without which there cannot be harsh speech.

Image

http://books.google.com/books?id=J8wFrG ... ch&f=false

EDIT: Hm, seems the links to the images aren't workin. Oh well just follow the links.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:36 pm

What?!!! You mean you are going to take the teachings of Ju Mipham Rinpoche and Tai Situpa as more authoritative than lowlydog's meditative experiences?!!! Have you thought this through carefully or is it just a whim? :tongue:
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Zealot » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:47 pm

Okay, I certainly admit that for most conduct harsh speech is of no value. However, the purpose of harsh speech is to hurt one's feelings, correct? If a very ego driven person who insists on debasing others and the value of their view, however ignorant or incorrect it may be, how does one go about opening their mind? Some people only learn by being conquered - in a battle, in a relationship, in a debate. In some cultures, you need to 'win' the argument to get respect or your point to be heard which usually involves harsh speech or debasing a person. I think it's kind of like showing a person a mirror of their own conduct to make them see that it is not correct or beneficial. So I guess what I'm saying is harsh people sometimes need harsh words to benefit them or soften them up.

On a completely unrelated note, I'm hanging out with a cricket today. He seems content to sit on my desk; I think he likes the laptop's warmth.
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:36 pm

There's nothing wrong with debate, even heated debate. There are all kinds of places in the Pali Canon where a certain point of view is referred as a "fools doctrine" or similar, i'm sure the translations can be debated, but if they are even remotely correct then obviously Right Speech means something that goes beyond, and outside the realm of just politeness. there's also the stuff in Dhammapada about finding teachers who will be openly critical of you, rather than those who constantly reassure - not the same thing, but possibly related.

It's one thing to try to communicate in the most effective, open way possible, but another to limits one's scope or approach due to not wanting to make someone uncomfortable, IMO the latter can be used as just a cop out when things get uncomfortable.

I think what usually happens on forums is an impasse is reached, discussions come to a point where neither side is willing or able to see the others point. At this point the conversation either (hopefully) wraps up amicably, or if not often descends into attacking what is seen as the other point of view, whether it is in reality or not - that is where "harsh speech" gets generated it seems to me.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Harsh Speech

Postby lowlydog » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:20 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
And your knowledge of my practices arises as a consequence of your omniscience?
[/quote]

Infinate knowledge is of little importance compared to an ounce of experiencial wisdom. :smile:
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