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the great vegetarian debate - Page 76 - Dhamma Wheel

the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
alan
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby alan » Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:00 am

Vegetarianism has devolved into a simple-minded cult that refuses to accept new dietary science. Don't be like that.
We now know that some fats are good. You should eat them.

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tiltbillings
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:10 am


chownah
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:52 am

Alan,
I was vegetarian for years and ate alot of soy too and it was the healthiest period in my life....I worked hard at my job in the woods and could keep up with the best of them....so...should I accept my experience on the healthfulness of a vegetarian diet and soy or should I go by what I read on the internet?
chownah

PeterB
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:17 am


Mawkish1983
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:30 am

For me, the urge to become vegetarian is growing stronger and stronger. I cannot convince my wife though; she is the reason we still buy meat and I have no willpower. If something is in the house, I'll eat it.

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:56 am


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:02 am


PeterB
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:23 am

I made a conscious choice to eat a vegetarian diet 23 years ago, and after a wobbly year or two have kept to that.
I really don't care what anyone else eats.
I see no reason to believe that people " crave " soy burgers any less than people " crave" beefburgers.
I do note that beefburger eaters over a certain age do not on the whole bore the arse off everyone they come across concerning what they do or do not stick in their gobs.
Unless they are Wimpy in the Popeye cartoons beefburger eaters do not construct an entire persona around lunch.
And I have no impulse to influence anyone in the matter.
Buddha Dhamma is not the spiritual dimension of my Vegetarianism.

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Lazy_eye
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:20 am


PeterB
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:52 am

I may be wrong Lazy Eye .but I interpreted Ben's remarks not in the context of western society at large, but in the context of Buddhist forums...where an unhealthy obsession with what other people put in their lunch packs seems to to be a large part of the the raison d'etre for some people posting at all.
When we consider the way that food in general is produced focusing on meat production is much too narrow.
We moved back two years ago to the Greater London area after almost nine years in the west country of the UK...whole tracts of this largely rural landscape are now devoid of most insect and bird life...Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring " has come true outside of the towns and villages...whole tracts of land which support impeccably vegetarian production are wastelands...
No insects, no birds, no mammals no amphibians no reptiles...no wild flowers...just monoculture deserts of meat free oilseed rape, completely vegan fields of wheat and barley..and nothing moves under the sun apart from those products of monoculture.
Ironically, given the context of this debate the exceptions are those fields in those farms where there are livestock. With the concomitant insect and bird life and those that predate insects and birds as part of the big cycle.
No one is free from their engement with the processes of death..whether dedicated carnivore or purist vegan . As anyone who has ever raised veggies will attest it is not possible without killing.

And I havent even mentioned my wifes big concern....nematodes. :o

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nicro » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:00 pm


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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:42 pm

Rob I completely understand where you are coming from.
I'm just a bit flabberghasted by the discussion and that there is presently an acute situation in East Africa where millions of people are facing starvation.
My original comment was put out there to give our members some pause for thought. To stop thinking about themselves, their self images, about what they put in their mouths, judging others by what they are putting in their mouths and just think for a minute about those who are dying of starvation.

Just this morning, I listened on the radio one Somali refugee's story of how she walked for thirty days with her two children to get to a UN food station and along the way both her children were taken by lions.

I would reckon it would put a lot of things into perspective.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Lazy_eye
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:44 pm


PeterB
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:31 pm

A conversation that I had with Trungpa Rinpoche occurs to me.
I wrote about it once on E Sangha and was duly shouted at..but here goes... :smile:

Trungpa R. " We have just had two big walk in freezers installed at Samye Ling.
Now we will be able to buy whole carcasses in order to cut down on the numbers of sentient creatures dying in order for us to eat "

Me "I am not sure I follow Rinpoche ..."

CTR..." Oh of course I forget you are a westerner and so you assume that one cow is more sentient than a thousand beetles ".

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Lazy_eye
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:30 pm


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Dan74
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Dan74 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:09 pm

Just watched Food Inc on the plane. Worth a look especially for our North American friends although it would probably be relevant elsewhere too.



I think it is not necessary to personalise this debate and to speculate on the people's motivations as if the only reason to be mindful of what one eats is conceit and spoiled Western sensibilities. It may be but it doesn't have to be.

Ben's point about the famine in Somalia is well-taken but we still have to make choices when we go food-shopping or when we order meals at a restaurant. And isn't it better if these choices are informed by the appropriate facts as well as the right view and compassion to the best of our abilities?

This is what such discussion can be helpful for - to illuminate the relevant facts and tease out the real issues here I think. There is no point in posturing and trying to prove that my way is better than yours and I don't think this is what most people are doing. But there is a point in sharing information and trying to understand the relationship of the choices we make to our Buddhist practice.
_/|\_

alan
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby alan » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:36 am

Thanks for the link Dan, I'll check it out. Along those lines, I'd highly recommend the book "Fast Food Nation".
Ben, I love your big heart. We're all moved by the situation in Somalia.
But--I don't see the connection between that tragedy and our individual food choices.

Here is my attitude: Since the health of our bodies is directly affected by our nourishment, doesn't it make sense to learn as much as we can about how to eat properly? I know, these can become emotional disputes, with one ideology arguing another. I'm suggesting the best course of action is to let go of clinging to ideas formed many years ago, and act rationally based on the latest information. There is a new consensus in dietary science, and it does not support the low fat vegetarian approach. I've seen the results in my own body--I'm more muscular and have much lower body fat than I did in my veggie days.

I've tried many approaches throughout the years and am always looking for new information. I offer you the best of what I know now. I offer it because I like to help.

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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:46 am

Thank you, Alan.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:51 am


alan
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby alan » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:02 am

What else would I use as a basis other than my own research and experience, my passion to get this right, and my desire to share?


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