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plwk wrote:Is it true as one Gelugpa I know asserts that in Vajrayana, one, after taking refuge can go ahead and receive the Bodhisattva Vows without the preliminary foundation of receiving the Pratimoksa (here, the context of the laity's 5 [or during the sojong's 8]) Precepts? If not, why? If yes, why?
Agreed as this is also taught in Mahayana to some interpretation but I am also thinking that perhaps, there are some who may not be ready for the extensive scope and practice of the Bodhisattva Vows so this is where the Pratimoksa vows come in as an introductory or foundational scope and practice, hence as you said, 'recommended' and 'necessity'?It is not necessary to first take the pratimoksa vows but it is usually recommended - the pratimoksha is usually included in the first of the three Bodhisattva moralities.
Yes I have read that before, especially in terms of karma, effect and motivation amongst the many considerations.The relationship between how the pratimoksa support bodhisattva morality,and whether bodhisattva pratimoksa is unique is explained differently by different masters see for example Asanga, Atisha, Sapan and Tsongkhapa.
plwk wrote: If the Bodhisattva Pratimoksa is so 'complete' and even encompasses the Sravaka Pratimoksa, in the context of monastic ordination, why didn't these masters receive ordination utilising it then, like what the Japanese did in setting aside the Sravaka Vinaya Pratimoksa in favor of the Bodhisattva Pratimoksa?
Why do they still receive monastic ordination under the systems of Mulasarvastivada for Sapan & Tsongkhapa, the Mahasamghika for Atisa and in Asanga's case, some say it could be from Mahisasaka or Mulasarvastivada, all of which are the Sravaka Pratimoksa systems (which today one can see the complexities of ordination processes) whereas the Bodhisattva Vows do not contain monastic vows nor imposes celibacy unlike the Sravaka Pratimoksa for the ordained, hence its openness to all, ordained and laity alike. ?
It is the Patimokkha since it is the fallen that it frees (mokkheti) from the suffering of samsara. For it is due to the release (vimokkhena) of the mind (cittassa) that a being is spoken of as ‘liberated’” (UdA 223—224).
jmlee369 wrote: the pratimoksha vows that one has taken serves as the first of the three moralities.
jmlee369 wrote: I came across a sutra that serves as the basis of the bodhisattva precepts mentioned in the Yogacarabhumi Shastra in Chinese translation and it required people receiving bodhisattva precepts to have taken pratimoksha precepts of some sort as well.
Tom wrote: Dragpa Gyeltsen certainly does not agree with the above statement and Tsongkhapa I think agrees but with some qualifications.
kirtu wrote:Tom wrote: Dragpa Gyeltsen certainly does not agree with the above statement and Tsongkhapa I think agrees but with some qualifications.
Which "above statement" were you referring to?
jmlee369 wrote:From the Bodhisattva Virtuous Morality Sutra (菩薩善戒經), Scroll 4, Chapter 11 on the Bodhisattva Ground Morality. Taisho No.1582一切戒者。在家出家所受持者名一切戒。在家出家戒有三種。一者戒。二者受善法戒。三者為利眾生故行戒。云何名戒。所謂七種戒。比丘比丘尼。式叉摩那。沙彌沙彌尼。優婆塞優婆夷。菩薩摩訶薩若欲受持菩薩戒者。先當淨心受七種戒。七種戒者。即是淨心趣菩薩戒。
"Those of the all morality: all morality is the name for that received and upheld by householder and homeleaver (monastic). Householder and homeleaver morality is of three types. 1) morality, 2) receiving virtuous dharmas morality, 3) acting for the benefit of sentient beings morality. What is called morality? They are the seven types of morality. Bhikshu, Bhikshuni, Shikshamana, Sramanera, Sramaneri, Upasaka and Upasika. If there are Bodhisattva Mahasattvas desire to receive and uphold the bodhisattva morality, they should first purify their mind (read with pure mind?) and receive the seven types of morality. Those of the seven types of morality, are namely the pure mind's realm bodhisattva vows."
This is in reference to the second of nine tupes of morality, the all (or complete) morality.