Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Jhana4
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Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby Jhana4 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:58 pm

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:08 am


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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby Mawkish1983 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:43 am


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daverupa
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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby daverupa » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:09 am


Jhana4
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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:20 am

So if a person enjoys doing metta, it is a transformed into a "sin", which will paid for later by going to hell, after they are done with a life deva realm? Your interpolation is not much better than my interpretation.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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daverupa
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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby daverupa » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:45 am


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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby ground » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 pm


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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby Akuma » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:47 pm


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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby befriend » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:24 pm

i always thought it meant, you COULD go to hell after you spend time in the brahma realms from doing metta. the point that the author is making is that its possible to go to hell after being in a brahma realm. it would be nice to hear a monks take on this.
nothing can destroy a man who has lived a pure life

alan
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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby alan » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:05 am

J4,
Are you sure you understand the quote you reference?
You may be making mistaken assumptions.

Jhana4
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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:02 am

I understand what you are saying, but given that these suttas were recited one at a time from itinerants I don't think it is fair to bolster the meaning of the suttas to the positive by squaring it with other works or interpolation. On its own, the sutta basically says that practicing the Brahma Viharas will get you some rewards, which will wear off and put you into an existence of intense suffering unless you become one of the Buddha's students.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Dan74
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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby Dan74 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:53 pm

_/|\_

alan
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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby alan » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:24 am

Seriously misguided interpretation, J4. where did you even get this idea?

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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby MidGe » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:49 am

I was really shocked by my initial understanding of the subject of this thread!

Of course on reading the suttas, there is absolutely nothing shocking about it at all from my viewpoint. Kammic accumulation is huge over so many lifetimes, occurring since a beginning to it cannot be found, so far away it is. I understand that most worldlings have at least some (probably much) kammic accumulation that would send them to those less than desirable realms. In fact I use this as a motivator to attempt to reach stream-entry, knowing that, circumstances being right, some opportunity may arise for the result of some kamma to come into effect such that I may be back to these realms.

I guess I don't read an implication that Metta is the cause of ending up in the disfavourable realms. My own understanding of this sutta is that a non-worldling (aryans) will not end up in those realms and that worldlings may even after having spent time in brahma spheres, or elsewhere. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby daverupa » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:06 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby Alex123 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:13 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

rowyourboat
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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:08 pm

SN 56.48PTS: S v 456CDB ii 1872
Chiggala Sutta: The Hole
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2011
"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

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& Upekkha

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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby befriend » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:29 pm

i think it would be a good idea for us to ask our teachers instead of trying to decipher the meaning of this sutta for ourselves.
nothing can destroy a man who has lived a pure life

rowyourboat
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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:53 pm

Hi befriend,

I think it means that being born as human beings is so rare - it is more likely (couldn't find the exact sutta) that one would be born in hellish realms. They say it much more likely thar your direction is samsara will be 'down' to hellish realms that 'up' to heavenly realms - I guess that explains why the animal realm outnumbers us humans by a wide margin.

With metta :anjali:

Matheesha
With Metta

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Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Do Metta, Go to to Hell

Postby befriend » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:02 pm

why do buddhist teachers teach metta as a meditation practice then? is this sutra supposed to warn us about practicing metta? if so i havent heard any contemporary teachers try to stop us from practicing metta.
nothing can destroy a man who has lived a pure life


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