Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
hello,
does anybody know, if and when the 17. Karmapa, Orgyen Trinley Dorje received full ordination, bhikshu vows?
thanks for any reply!
wm
does anybody know, if and when the 17. Karmapa, Orgyen Trinley Dorje received full ordination, bhikshu vows?
thanks for any reply!
wm
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Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
I don't think he has taken full ordination yet.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
Thanks for your reply! I thought so, too, but was not really sure about it. I wonder if he will do it or what are the reasons he hasn't done it, yet, respectively.
Anyway, thanks for reply again.
Anyway, thanks for reply again.
Life is great and death has to be just as great as life.
- Mike Tyson
People not only don't know what's happening to them, they don't even know that they don't know.
- Noam Chomsky
- Mike Tyson
People not only don't know what's happening to them, they don't even know that they don't know.
- Noam Chomsky
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
If you read Karma Thinley's History of the Sixteen Karmapas, you notice that some of them take full ordination much later in life than others. I can't recall which Karmapa it was, but one of them did not do so until his early 30s.
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
Does the book offer any insight to the reasons behind waiting so long before they took full ordination, or the advantages of doing so?Jikan wrote:If you read Karma Thinley's History of the Sixteen Karmapas, you notice that some of them take full ordination much later in life than others. I can't recall which Karmapa it was, but one of them did not do so until his early 30s.
No Distracted Thoughts!- Geshe Karag Gomchung
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
Was the 15th Karmapa the only householder?
Kirt
Kirt
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Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
Yes, I think so. The remaining incarnations all remained monks, and the 16th from what I hear of friends who knew him quite well, insisted on strict monastic discipline.Was the 15th Karmapa the only householder?
My feeling is that HH Karmapa will take the bhikshu ordination soon- he is very interested in preserving the sangha. During the Kagyu monlams he insisted on the highest standard of conduct and provided classes on how to properly accept offerings, bow with the robes, walk, etc.
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
It seems that also 10th Karmapa was a layman, he was wearing a long hair and was traveling in a company of many women (this was noted by the 5th Dalailama, when the two of them met), so I doubt that he was a bikshu. Tibetan histories tend to "monasticize" teachers who were actually not monks at all, or they were monastics only for some earlier part of their life - for example Longchenpa. Also Milarepa is being presented as celibate (though not monastic) by some teachers these days, while the early biographies are said to speak of Milarepa having multiple consorts.kirtu wrote:Was the 15th Karmapa the only householder?
Kirt
In Tibet there seems to be a sentiment of looking down on the practitioners who have given back their vows and continued as a laymen no matter how high capacity this practitioner could have - Shakya Shri is one of several such practitioners. So I think this is also reason for covering up a history of nonmonastic teachers in a monastic lineage. Several Shamarpas were clearly laymen, yet they are depicted as monastics in the lineage paintings of Karma Kagyu.
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
Rumor has it that the 15th said he would be a monk in his subsequent incarnations.JKhedrup wrote:Yes, I think so. The remaining incarnations all remained monks, and the 16th from what I hear of friends who knew him quite well, insisted on strict monastic discipline.Was the 15th Karmapa the only householder?
My feeling is that HH Karmapa will take the bhikshu ordination soon- he is very interested in preserving the sangha. During the Kagyu monlams he insisted on the highest standard of conduct and provided classes on how to properly accept offerings, bow with the robes, walk, etc.
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
Probably a good idea to separate ordinary lay practitioners from enlightened masters (who were not ordained), because such beings were in every sense identical to monks (apart from their clothing). Conventional divisions like non-monastic versus monastic and celibate versus non-celibate are therefore not really applicable.dzoki wrote:It seems that also 10th Karmapa was a layman, he was wearing a long hair and was traveling in a company of many women (this was noted by the 5th Dalailama, when the two of them met), so I doubt that he was a bikshu. Tibetan histories tend to "monasticize" teachers who were actually not monks at all, or they were monastics only for some earlier part of their life - for example Longchenpa. Also Milarepa is being presented as celibate (though not monastic) by some teachers these days, while the early biographies are said to speak of Milarepa having multiple consorts.
In Tibet there seems to be a sentiment of looking down on the practitioners who have given back their vows and continued as a laymen no matter how high capacity this practitioner could have - Shakya Shri is one of several such practitioners. So I think this is also reason for covering up a history of nonmonastic teachers in a monastic lineage. Several Shamarpas were clearly laymen, yet they are depicted as monastics in the lineage paintings of Karma Kagyu.
R.
Last edited by Raksha on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
Not so much, no.Dhondup wrote:Does the book offer any insight to the reasons behind waiting so long before they took full ordination, or the advantages of doing so?Jikan wrote:If you read Karma Thinley's History of the Sixteen Karmapas, you notice that some of them take full ordination much later in life than others. I can't recall which Karmapa it was, but one of them did not do so until his early 30s.
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
I just read in the recently published book "History of the Karmapas" http://www.shambhala.com/history-of-the-karmapas.html (BTW, a wonderful book) on page 253, that
The information here http://www.bodhionline.org/ViewArticle.asp?id=149 and here http://the17thkarmapa.blogspot.de/2012/ ... -2002.html says that he received the Getsul vows, but no mention of Gelong vows, as in the book stated.the Dalai Lama conferred on the young Karmapa the vows of a fully ordainied monk.
Life is great and death has to be just as great as life.
- Mike Tyson
People not only don't know what's happening to them, they don't even know that they don't know.
- Noam Chomsky
- Mike Tyson
People not only don't know what's happening to them, they don't even know that they don't know.
- Noam Chomsky
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje (born in 1983) was ordained a shramanera at the age of 11 by Chobgye Tri Rinpoche and at 16 he started a 3 year retreat. He took his full ordination at the age of 23.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
In the 16 Karmapas, Karma Thinley Rinpoche records that the 10th Karmapa was ordained at the age of 21 at Tsurphu. He spent most of his life in exile due to his association with the Tsang chieftans who were in conflict with Sera and Drepung. He returned to Tibet once in that time to seek out the Shamar incarnation, and he disguised himself as a layman. It is very interesting that the 5th Dalai Lama records he was dressed as a layman. Perhaps after 30 years, he had become accustomed to this lifestyle. There is no suggestion he gave up his vows.Raksha wrote:Probably a good idea to separate ordinary lay practitioners from enlightened masters (who were not ordained), because such beings were in every sense identical to monks (apart from their clothing). Conventional divisions like non-monastic versus monastic and celibate versus non-celibate are therefore not really applicable.dzoki wrote:It seems that also 10th Karmapa was a layman, he was wearing a long hair and was traveling in a company of many women (this was noted by the 5th Dalailama, when the two of them met), so I doubt that he was a bikshu. Tibetan histories tend to "monasticize" teachers who were actually not monks at all, or they were monastics only for some earlier part of their life - for example Longchenpa. Also Milarepa is being presented as celibate (though not monastic) by some teachers these days, while the early biographies are said to speak of Milarepa having multiple consorts.
In Tibet there seems to be a sentiment of looking down on the practitioners who have given back their vows and continued as a laymen no matter how high capacity this practitioner could have - Shakya Shri is one of several such practitioners. So I think this is also reason for covering up a history of nonmonastic teachers in a monastic lineage. Several Shamarpas were clearly laymen, yet they are depicted as monastics in the lineage paintings of Karma Kagyu.
R.
There isn't any evidence to suggest Milarepa maintained the Brahmacharya, this is made up. He is said to have taken Tseringma and her sisters as consorts, but I think it is also fair to say his activity is completely inconceivable.
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
From whom did he receive the full ordination?gregkavarnos wrote:Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje (born in 1983) was ordained a shramanera at the age of 11 by Chobgye Tri Rinpoche and at 16 he started a 3 year retreat. He took his full ordination at the age of 23.
Re: Bhikshu Ordination of Karmapa 17
I'll ask my teachers and get back to you on that one.JKhedrup wrote:From whom did he receive the full ordination?gregkavarnos wrote:Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje (born in 1983) was ordained a shramanera at the age of 11 by Chobgye Tri Rinpoche and at 16 he started a 3 year retreat. He took his full ordination at the age of 23.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde