Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby windsweptliberty » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:12 am

I hear you. And can respect your regard for truth.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Yudron » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:29 pm

My opinion is that we need more self-described Buddhists who actually practice in depth until we have reached the first Bodhisattva bhumi and fewer un-enlightened "teachers."
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby windsweptliberty » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:49 pm

Sure, I can see that. Formal education can be limiting. This path certainly starts with a self description or non-self description. :lol: And yet it's always comforting to know that there are those out there who admire honesty -the watch dogs of truth so to speak. Alls good.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby jisahn108 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:36 pm

Oh my word, the power of the phrases I hear you and I respect that. Nice. That is a person who practices. Thank you.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Ven. Charama Bhavika » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:12 pm

Greetings to All!

I apologize for not returning sooner. I was sick for 7-10 days with a terrible cold/sinus infection that made me tired and lacking focus. I'm just now back up to 98% health. So I thought I'd stop by.

I hope all of you are well.

I have great news to share!

1. I have seen the document signed by Ven. Dr. Kelsang Chitta Karuna (Provost and Dean) and Ven. Dr. Karuna Dharma (Factulty Advisor Emeritus) that transfers Ven. Dr. Thich Thien-an's Buddhist Studies Institute - Los Angeles to our Abbot at the Five Mountain Zen Order. We will post a link to this document on the new web site for the Buddhist Studies Institute - Los Angeles in January, 2013. That should put this matter to rest.

2. I have spoken to Ven. Wonji Dharma (Paul Lynch) at length about his authority to be a Zen teacher and I can assure everyone here that he has full credentials and all necessary authority to be a Zen teacher in charge of his own Order, as well as the authority to convey Zen teacher status upon others within his Order. There is a very good reason why Paul hasn't spoken out until now. I don't blame him for not doing so. And I don't envy his task of explaining the unique circumstances behind his silence. At some point in the very near future, he will post to his Zen Mirror web site, and may even link to all necessary credentials and documents. At that point, this matter shall also be put to rest.

I hope at that point people will be able to set aside their animosity and see that the Five Mountain Zen Order -- its founder, teachers, leaders, and clergy -- is dedicated to compassionate, sincere, honest, and diligent adherence to and application of the Dharma. We are trying our level best to meet the needs of practitioners in the West in the 21st century. That may appear to some that we're disregarding the old traditions. It may appear to others that we're forging a new kind of Zen. But it may appear to those whom we serve, and with whom we learn, that we are addressing correct situation, correct function, and correct relationship. We ask, "What is it?" and answer "Don't know."

In short, we strive to keep our minds clear moment after moment after moment -- not for our sake; rather, to be able to ask, "How may I help you?" to those whom we encounter on the Path.

Thank you for your time reading this. If anyone would like to befriend me on Facebook, I believe my URL ends with charamabhavika. Thus: https://www.facebook.com/charamabhavika.

That might get you there. If not, just type in Charama Bhavika in the search bar on Facebook.

Feel free to send me a friend request! I'd love to hear from you.

Many Bows On Sunny Day,

Charama
"If you want to attain your true nature, you must have Great Faith, Great Courage, and Great Question. It is like a three-legged stool...With these supporting your practice, you can attain your true self. You can attain universal substance, and attain your correct way, and truth, and make your life correct. Then you can help all sentient beings get out of suffering. That is our job."

- Zen Master Seung Sahn
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby jisahn108 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:40 pm

Oh gee Paul lynch's student says we can be assured of his credentials. Well that sure puts that to bed. Still, why not address the laundry list of other lies, since you won't deal with that one?
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby deweyboy » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:36 pm

Jishan, What good are you doing here? I have read your posts filled with ad hominem attacks and sarcastic comments when others reply. What good are you doing here?
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Jikan » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:39 pm

deweyboy wrote:Jishan, What good are you doing here? I have read your posts filled with ad hominem attacks and sarcastic comments when others reply. What good are you doing here?


Hi deweyboy,

can you give an example of an ad hominem attack in any of jisahn108's posts? I've seen sarcasm (which is not against the rules) but I'm not aware of ad homs.

thanks
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby deweyboy » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:05 pm

I remember one where Jisahn comments about a picture on the Five Mountain Web Site stating that " a motlier bunch I have never seen". But that is not my point! I asked what good he is doing?
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby deweyboy » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:09 pm

Also, calling Paul Lynch a liar is an ad hominem attack and very un Buddhist. 98% of Jisahn's posts are bashing Five Mountain. What good is he doing?
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby jisahn108 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:21 pm

I'm calling him a liar because he's lied. That's what people who lie are called. Liars. He's said that he received transmission from Bob Moore. He didn't. He said he was a student of James ford. He wasn't. He said he never said that. 3 dozen websites making that claim proved him a liar. I could go on...but if you'd actually read my posts you'd see long lists of specific Lynch lies and distortions. You claim to have read my posts. Didn't you read these lists? Maybe you don't want to? But since you don't seem to have any idea what ad hominem means, maybe there is a literacy issue. Although ironically your statement is precisely an ad hominem attack. Lol!

The good I've done is when the next person looking for a zen teacher encountering Paul lynch and has the good sense to do a little research will find this thread near the top of any search page. They might then come here and see clear emphatic description of Lynch's shady history and think twice about going to him for spiritual guidance. I call that a public service, and the highest good.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Jikan » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:30 pm

deweyboy wrote:Also, calling Paul Lynch a liar is an ad hominem attack and very un Buddhist. 98% of Jisahn's posts are bashing Five Mountain. What good is he doing?


It's an ad hominem attack if there's no evidence behind it. That is, it's one thing to point to a photo of me and observe I have a big nose (I do), but something else entirely to call me Big Nose without ever having seen me. Ridiculous analogy, I know, but I hope it illustrates the distinction.

To the point: if you have counterevidence to rebut jisahn's claims, then please, please, please bring it forward.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby deweyboy » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:24 am

Jishan and Jikan, I just find it very odd that someone gets on a site and dedicates his time to attack someone with 98% of his entries, and attacking those who will not join him in his attacks. There is evident anger on a grand scale. Go back and read your posts, they are a good mirror for you. As far as doing good, perhaps all the time you have spent could be better spent visiting someone in a Nursing home who is lonely.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby jisahn108 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:04 am

Sorry Jikan but you don't have it. An ad hominem attack is to respond o someone's argument by attacking them personally rather than the argument. So the analogy would go, i say to you "you lied in this case and this case and this case and here is how when and where" and you say "that doesn't matter because your nose is big".

Actually in this case the ad hominem attack goes "I won't address your points because you make ad hominem attacks." The definition of irony. And fallacious logic. And poor vocabulary.

Another ad hominem attack is to again refuse to address points by saying the person brings the points up too often. Evasion. A standard tactic.

Another is to say "your points don't matter because you would be a better person if you behaved differently and didnt ask such mean questions." Still not addressing a single point. All of this absolutely beautifully illustrates ad hominem attacks. Thank you deweyboy for making the point so elegantly.
Last edited by jisahn108 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby deweyboy » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:20 am

Dear Jisahn, I wish you well!. I hope you have good health and happiness in the New Year. love, Dewey
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby jisahn108 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:28 am

Considering paul lynch has never not waded into arguments about his legitimacy before in other contexts, I tend to feel like deweyboy might actually be doughyboy, aka Paul Lynch himself. The tone is awfully similar to his voice in other places. And Paul makes the same accusations of his critics while dodging the points: "you clearly are cast into the pit of your anger. Have a nice life." He loves that last kind of passive aggressive ending dismissal. Uses them in all emails and posts to disgruntled students and gadflies. Including according to one here recently. We shall all await his public statement with great anticipation. Just not while holding breath.

PS OMG! While I wrote the above said Dewey posted the above wish for health etc. hi Paul! How the heck are ya! Where's that statement friend?! Give us the lowdown! Why you lie so much dude? Why not answer the questions? Why so invested in being the big kahuna? Why not give up this whole patriarchal charade? Take a load off. It'll do ya good.

But wait - that's what your zen teacher told you to do just before you ran off and started calling yourself sensei/chanshi/sonsanim/venerable now Vietnamese whoever. When can we expect your announcement as Tibetan tulku? Hindu avatar? Alien prophet?
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Ven. Charama Bhavika » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:18 am

Hi Everyone,

I don't have any context around here. I can't tell who's a Buddhist and who isn't.

However, it's easy to see that Jisahn108 is angry and seems to hold a very deep and abiding grudge against Paul Lynch and the Five Mountain Zen Order. Such vitriol doesn't discount Jisahn108 from being a Buddhist. But it makes it less likely. Buddhists don't viciously attack others.

I'm sorry you're hurting, Jisahn108. I don't know what caused it. But I'm sorry you grieve.

I've known a few people who harbor deep-seated anger. I've found that once they have their minds made up, they will not change them regardless of facts supplied. I hope you're not someone like that. Such people are miserable.

I don't know Deweyboy. But his observation was sound. "Doing good" is the raison d'être of the Buddhist life.

As a Zen Buddhist, my job is to be of service to others, to help relieve their suffering, to help them wake up to their true nature. I consider time lost that isn't spent helping others. So I understand Deweyboy's concern regarding Jisahn108's attitude.

@Jisahn108, as I mentioned, additional answers are forthcoming. I've already addressed one of the issues here -- the Buddhist Studies Institute - Los Angeles. I also said I know about Wonji Dharma's authority to teach Zen. That will be made known in due time.

Also, I've mentioned that I've known Paul Lynch (Wonji Dharma) for over 2-1/2 years, spending hundreds of hours during that time asking questions and getting answers. No question I've ever posed to him was rebuffed. No question ever lacked an answer. I don't know who you are, Jisahn108. But I venture to guess you haven't spent that much time with Wonji Dharma -- if you know him personally at all.

As I mentioned in this post, people who are angry are usually dead-set on revealing the bad in people (or inventing it when it's not there to begin with). So they usually don't accept answers that don't fit their worldview. Therefore, it's not likely anything shared here or on our web sites will suffice.

I realize that. Yet I'm still here. I've made myself available if you'd like to befriend me on Facebook. I've offered to be of service, or to answer any questions I can. Personally, I enjoy forums. I enjoy meeting people, and I like learning new things from others. If you'd like to be sarcastic with me, or make fun of my style of writing, please feel free. I'd rather you didn't. But if you want to, go ahead.

One of the things Wonji Dharma tells me often is this: "Patience." That's a lesson I most need to learn. Patience. I lack it far too often.

I would ask patience of everyone here. And kindness wherever possible. There's no need for anger, bitterness, are sarcasm.

Think of it this way. Nothing is gained by tearing down a fellow human being, and all those (like me) who know him and are simply try to live the Zen Buddhist life the best we can. Yet, on the other hand, much can be gained by working together, building bridges, and showing compassion.

I take my Precepts seriously. I ask others here who are Buddhists to do the same.

I'm probably up to 99% full health. But now I'm behind on my projects. So I may not check back here for awhile until I catch up. I'm not on Facebook all that often, either. Yet, if you send me a friend request, or a message here on the Forum, I think it'll reach me.

I look forward to returning. I may even, as time permits, spend time browsing other topics on Dharma Wheel. This looks like a tremendous resource!

Many Bows,

Charama

P.S. Has anyone here read the late Ven. Dr. Thich Thien-An's book Zen Philosophy Zen Practice? It's wonderful. Like Zen Master Seun Sahn's book Compass of Zen, it is remarkably insightful and beneficial.
"If you want to attain your true nature, you must have Great Faith, Great Courage, and Great Question. It is like a three-legged stool...With these supporting your practice, you can attain your true self. You can attain universal substance, and attain your correct way, and truth, and make your life correct. Then you can help all sentient beings get out of suffering. That is our job."

- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Compass of Zen
Ven. Charama Bhavika
 
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby jisahn108 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:53 am

Again, passive aggressive ad hominems. "aw. me so sorry you are hurting from your delusive anger. You are hopeless, therfore it is pointless to answer your questions." Classic. This is how new age so-called Buddhists attacks their critics. You see it all the time. Totally lame. Tired and childish.

Just for fun ill ask again:
-Why did Paul Lynch say he studied with James Ford when he didn't, and use the title sensei during that period implying teaching authorization? He also gave rinzai style rakusu out to his "ordainees" further implying credentials he didn't have.

-why did he call himself chanshi (chan master ) after that when he never studied chan or received authorization from a chan teacher?

- and why does he use the term sonsanim when he admits he never received transmission from Bob Moore or anyone else in a Korean lineage?

-why did he say he never claimed ford as a teacher when those claims were still all over the Internet?

Come on man. Put up or shut up. Zen isn't pretending to be a phony baloney saint with 14 differnt ever changing asian names. It's about the truth. So square off with it already.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:39 am

Ven. Charama,
Do you have any idea when Wongji Dharma will post the relevant information to his site?

Also, will that include confirmation that it is now Five Mountain Zen order who are upholding the lineage of Ven. Thich Thien An, (rather than IBMC). I honestly do hope that all the information can be posted and this matter will be cleared. Of course the way that the Five Mountains Order does things will still be up for debate- personally I object to the use of Vinaya monastic titles designated by Lord Buddha being used by people who continue to have romantic relationships. No Buddhist organization is immune to scrutiny, which I think is a good thing.

But if we know Wongji Dharma has the good faith of his teachers to give transmission, and Ven. Thich Thien An's students to continue that lineage, we can be confident Five Mountains has some solid foundations. It will go a long way to dispelling some of the misgivings that have been posted here.

I ask when this information will be posted because I may suggest to the other moderators to lock this thread if it gets too contentious. I don't want to keep the thread closed for a long period, so when the information is available it can be reopened to discuss it. But in the meantime this discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere and all the points that both sides have presented seem to be becoming circular.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Jikan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:22 pm

Ven. Charama Bhavika wrote:P.S. Has anyone here read the late Ven. Dr. Thich Thien-An's book Zen Philosophy Zen Practice? It's wonderful. Like Zen Master Seun Sahn's book Compass of Zen, it is remarkably insightful and beneficial.


Yes, I'm quite fond of both volumes for the reasons you describe. Here's a thread on Zen Philosophy, Zen Practice:

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=10853

***

Overall, I think this thread could use less hyperbole and more facts. What's really going on here?
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