Is the Nyingma tradition profoundly non-monastic?

[ngodrup]

@ Jkhedrup

I did not have the impression that you were engaging us in debate on the role of monasticism in the Nyingma tradition.
Rather, it seemed, you are immersed, steeped in a culture that assumes that to some extent assumes that
monasticism is normative and you are questioning that assumption. It doesn't seem to be the case with us, why is that?
Is the view that we are mainly non-monastic faulty? Is there some other way of understanding the culture of the
Nyingma community?

I think that the point of confusion is that we have two sanghas, red and white, who have parity, And that the ngakpas
hold higher vows causes has us hold them in higher esteem. But if course, like monastics some don't really live up to
their commitments-- and this should be expected because these to paths are practices not results. We also honor the
capacity of laypeople who are not clergy, but still possessed of Buddhanature, and are qualified to accomplish high realization.

I think that raising such questions produces understanding. Formal debate has more chance of inflaming know-it-all-ism,
in my opinion.

[Raksha]

...a culture that assumes that to some extent assumes that monasticism is normative...the ngakpas hold higher vows causes has us hold them in higher esteem.

In Buddhist culture monasticism is normative, and when it comes to vows the monks and nuns definitely have the upper hand.
R.

[kirtu]

Sometimes the institutions are what preserve the texts and lineages that let the yogi/nis wander off and gain those realizations....However, you see for example in Jamgon Kongtrul's biography that in some cases they can be obstacles.

I haven't read it, can you please explain a little.

Please read it. "A Gem of Many Colors" is probably the most excellent recent namthar available.

A faction of monks from HE Jamgon Kongtrul's institution turned against him in part and created a separation between him and the 8th (?) Tai Situpa - a tulku whose bittersweet story can be found in the excellent "Enthronement: The Recognition Of The Reincarnate Masters Of Tibet And The Himalayas" - Jamgon Kongtrul wrote an explanation of the tulku phenomena for lay and junior monastic Tibetans to be read during the enthronement ceremony and prayers for the enthronement ceremony (these are translated in the book as well). Kongtrul doesn't really write about the split that much but it comes up in his autobiography over a several year period.

In part, Kongtrul's devotion to his retreat program was partly a result of this split.

Kirt Undercoffer

[kirtu]

I once had the good fortune of being able to listen to a teaching on the nature of mind by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

Was this Old Dilgo Khyentse or his recent tulku?

For those of us who didn't understand Tibetan we just sat there and tried to be as present as possible during that teaching. There was a western Geshe there, quite fluent in Tibetan. Whilst all the other Nyingmas sat there and tried to take the teaching as directly as possible, the western Geshe was rocking backwards and forwards vigorously whilst counting points with one hand on the finger of the other.

Maybe he was excited. One hopes that we aren't producing Geshe Tsagphupa's (the geshe who was jealous of Milarepa).

Kirt

[Yudron]

Sometimes the institutions are what preserve the texts and lineages that let the yogi/nis wander off and gain those realizations....However, you see for example in Jamgon Kongtrul's biography that in some cases they can be obstacles.

I haven't read it, can you please explain a little.

Please read it. "A Gem of Many Colors" is probably the most excellent recent namthar available.

A faction of monks from HE Jamgon Kongtrul's institution turned against him in part and created a separation between him and the 8th (?) Tai Situpa - a tulku whose bittersweet story can be found in the excellent "Enthronement: The Recognition Of The Reincarnate Masters Of Tibet And The Himalayas" - Jamgon Kongtrul wrote an explanation of the tulku phenomena for lay and junior monastic Tibetans to be read during the enthronement ceremony and prayers for the enthronement ceremony (these are translated in the book as well). Kongtrul doesn't really write about the split that much but it comes up in his autobiography over a several year period.

In part, Kongtrul's devotion to his retreat program was partly a result of this split.

Kirt Undercoffer

I would second the opinion that this is one of the best namthars available in English--Kongtrul really broke with the namthar model and talked frankly about his life.

Kangtrul's deep regret at having set down his Nyingma practice to move into Institutionalized Kagyu mold, and the consequent creation of the Rime model, really transformed Tibetan Buddhism. Without it, we would not have the Kalu Rinpoche's crew of non-sectarian translators and who have brought us so much of the rich literature in translation that we have today, to touch on the very tip of the iceberg. I don't know where the Nyingma and Kagyu traditions would be without Kongtrul today.

A strict monk and scholar!

[JKhedrup]

I agree. I am a huge fan of the Tsadra series. The Tsadra series and Lam Rim Chenmo tie for best quality of translated material in modern English in my opinion. If I had the money I would purchase the entire series, along with all the volumes of Kongtrul's Treasury of Knowledge, translated by what is now called the Kalu Rinpoche Translation Group.

[Yudron]

Not only that, but Kalu Rinpoche's crew have translated much of the Padma Publishing,Jnanasukha Foundation, Vajrayana Foundation translations, as well as translating the whole Shangpa lineage tradition, and they have been involved in European translation projects as well. It just goes on and on, and the personal sacrifice of that group has been immense.

[JKhedrup]

One of the things I really like about it as well is that it is very clearly a "team". This is really what we need with translation endeavours in the West. Both for quality control purposes and cohesion purposes. It is really a shame more endeavours are not consultative.

[Yeti]

Thanks Raksha for your comments.

Yeti-la

I'm just wondering how my quick remark set you off, maybe your radar is set on too high alert for this. Maybe it's not. I don't know

This high alert attitude comes from seeing what happens on the various internet forums. The anonymity and accessbility of the internet means that attitudes that people would not normally express face-to-face in polite company often appear in the forums. I think if you stick around here awhile and observe you will see some of what I mean. I agree that in the centres people are generally milder, though I definitely think the sectarianism still exists.

Most of the sangha I know and connect with do not visit or post on Internet forums because of this. They wisely stay away because of what you observe. So maybe it is worth looking offline for more no sectarian influence to try to get a balanced view. At the same time, a lot of people here are no sectarian, but maybe that goes under the radar.

We all feel pressure to uphold the Dharma, and that's a good thing. I personally feel that whilst HHDL is alive and with us he deflects sooooo much negativity that could be directed to us because of His incredible manifestation and example. Goodness, even Guru Rinpoche was burnt (attempted), had forces attack Him, etc, etc.... so why should we expect the path is going to be easy for us when we have far less wisdom and merit???

[Yeti]

Please read it. "A Gem of Many Colors" is probably the most excellent recent namthar available.

A faction of monks from HE Jamgon Kongtrul's institution turned against him in part and created a separation between him and the 8th (?) Tai Situpa - a tulku whose bittersweet story can be found in the excellent "Enthronement: The Recognition Of The Reincarnate Masters Of Tibet And The Himalayas" - Jamgon Kongtrul wrote an explanation of the tulku phenomena for lay and junior monastic Tibetans to be read during the enthronement ceremony and prayers for the enthronement ceremony (these are translated in the book as well). Kongtrul doesn't really write about the split that much but it comes up in his autobiography over a several year period.

In part, Kongtrul's devotion to his retreat program was partly a result of this split.

Kirt Undercoffer

I'll try, if I can find a digital version. My sight is going and more and more I can only read on a large computer screen in large font. And more and more my vision is shaky as my nervous system deteriorates. (pls don't feel sorry for me... my life contains great fortune, and the funny thing is, as such situations compound on themselves there's the ever present Dharma teachers in the sky above me say "We told you so"... that's the great thing about the Dharma, it tells us straight about the nature of phenomena... Lion's Roar:)

Fortunately I did a lot of my Dharma reading back in the 70's and 80's when I could read a lot, but there are so many good translations out there now.

Anyway, it seems to be one that is worth the effort. Thanks.

[Yudron]

@ Jkhedrup
...I think that the point of confusion is that we have two sanghas, red and white, who have parity, And that the ngakpas
hold higher vows causes has us hold them in higher esteem. But if course, like monastics some don't really live up to
their commitments-- and this should be expected because these to paths are practices not results. We also honor the
capacity of laypeople who are not clergy, but still possessed of Buddhanature, and are qualified to accomplish high realization.

I'm not sure I understand you, but I think I disagree with you here. Everyone in Tibetan Buddhism--monastic and non-monastic-- takes empowerment, so we all receive the tantric vows. Very few people in this world are even holding one tantric vow purely -- having completely pure view of our lama all the time. I know I lapse. This is not even mentioning the many others -- even among the primary, core, samayas that most of us oh-so-holy holy ngakpa/mass and naljyorpa/ma's don't keep in mind in the slightest.

And so, I can't say that we are are upholders of tantric samayas, anymore than monks and nuns are. Therefore, I do not hold anyone in higher esteem based on the color of their robes. People who practice softly and genuinely, with deep humility, stand out in crowd--like they are in color in a black and white film. They're the one's I hold in high esteem.

[Yeti]

I once had the good fortune of being able to listen to a teaching on the nature of mind by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

Was this Old Dilgo Khyentse or his recent tulku?

Was Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche at Chanteloube, France in July/August 1986.

For those of us who didn't understand Tibetan we just sat there and tried to be as present as possible during that teaching. There was a western Geshe there, quite fluent in Tibetan. Whilst all the other Nyingmas sat there and tried to take the teaching as directly as possible, the western Geshe was rocking backwards and forwards vigorously whilst counting points with one hand on the finger of the other.

Maybe he was excited. One hopes that we aren't producing Geshe Tsagphupa's (the geshe who was jealous of Milarepa).

Kirt

Actually I think he was incredibly inspired by the teaching he was hearing, but to me, that manifest in what I would call an inspired Gelug way. I don't think he was suffering any kleshas at all. He was as inspired by anyone else there, maybe more than most of us as he was fluent in Tibetan, but the way it manifest was such a contrast in styles. Nothing wrong. It was just an interesting observation. I explained this a little more in other posts to JKhendrup.

[Yeti]

@ Jkhedrup
...I think that the point of confusion is that we have two sanghas, red and white, who have parity, And that the ngakpas
hold higher vows causes has us hold them in higher esteem. But if course, like monastics some don't really live up to
their commitments-- and this should be expected because these to paths are practices not results. We also honor the
capacity of laypeople who are not clergy, but still possessed of Buddhanature, and are qualified to accomplish high realization.

I'm not sure I understand you, but I think I disagree with you here. Everyone in Tibetan Buddhism--monastic and non-monastic-- takes empowerment, so we all receive the tantric vows. Very few people in this world are even holding one tantric vow purely -- having completely pure view of our lama all the time. I know I lapse. This is not even mentioning the many others -- even among the primary, core, samayas that most of us oh-so-holy holy ngakpa/mass and naljyorpa/ma's don't keep in mind in the slightest.

And so, I can't say that we are are upholders of tantric samayas, anymore than monks and nuns are. Therefore, I do not hold anyone in higher esteem based on the color of their robes. People who practice softly and genuinely, with deep humility, stand out in crowd--like they are in color in a black and white film. They're the one's I hold in high esteem.

Samaya's take a lot of conscious work IMHO. It's natural to lapse as samsara's habitual patterns continually arise, but for a practitioner, that is exactly what we are working on with the samayas and view, to wear down that habitual mind.

[Pema Rigdzin]

I think that the point of confusion is that we have two sanghas, red and white, who have parity, And that the ngakpas
hold higher vows causes has us hold them in higher esteem.

Ngodrup, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Nyingma monk or nun who hasn't received anuttarayogatantra empowerment... as as such, monks and nuns have even more vows than we "ngakpas" do. They have their hundreds of monastic vows PLUS all of our tantric samayas. And aside from the vow not to cut one's hair that comes with the hair empowerment of Troma Nagmo, there aren't any special, unique vows or samayas particular to "ngakpas." As such, all inner tantric practitioners are therefore ngakpas, if we're applying that label based upon vows.

[kirtu]

Please read it. "A Gem of Many Colors" is probably the most excellent

I'll try, if I can find a digital version.

There is a Kindle version (unfortunately only available through Amazon - I hope that Dharma publishing places produce more e-versions of various kinds). I have it and don't remember a problem with it (sometimes there are problems with the Kindle versions but I can only remember one problem with a math text). I expect that Kindle readers (the available software readers) under Windows or possibly Mac would be able to increase the font sufficiently. I have increasing poor vision and have increased my font size under the semi-authorized Windows version running under Wine under Linux. In fact I just brought it up (I had been reading Books 9 and 10 of Kongtrul's Encyclopedia Path and Goal) and it looks perfect.

Kirt

[kirtu]

I once had the good fortune of being able to listen to a teaching on the nature of mind by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

Was this Old Dilgo Khyentse or his recent tulku?

Was Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche at Chanteloube, France in July/August 1986.

Perfect. I'm very happy for you all all who attended.

Maybe he was excited. One hopes that we aren't producing Geshe Tsagphupa's ....

Actually I think he was incredibly inspired by the teaching he was hearing, but to me, that manifest in what I would call an inspired Gelug way. I don't think he was suffering any kleshas at all. He was as inspired by anyone else there, maybe more than most of us as he was fluent in Tibetan, but the way it manifest was such a contrast in styles. Nothing wrong. It was just an interesting observation.

I see. Perfect. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Kirt

[Yeti]

Please read it. "A Gem of Many Colors" is probably the most excellent

I'll try, if I can find a digital version.

There is a Kindle version (unfortunately only available through Amazon - I hope that Dharma publishing places produce more e-versions of various kinds). I have it and don't remember a problem with it (sometimes there are problems with the Kindle versions but I can only remember one problem with a math text). I expect that Kindle readers (the available software readers) under Windows or possibly Mac would be able to increase the font sufficiently. I have increasing poor vision and have increased my font size under the semi-authorized Windows version running under Wine under Linux. In fact I just brought it up (I had been reading Books 9 and 10 of Kongtrul's Encyclopedia Path and Goal) and it looks perfect.

Kirt

Yes, I have a number of ebooks on my Amazon account which I can read online. Can't download them, but reading online is fine. They have this book in Kindle format, so that is great.

I use Linux too.

Thanks

[Yeti]

Actually I think he was incredibly inspired by the teaching he was hearing, but to me, that manifest in what I would call an inspired Gelug way. I don't think he was suffering any kleshas at all. He was as inspired by anyone else there, maybe more than most of us as he was fluent in Tibetan, but the way it manifest was such a contrast in styles. Nothing wrong. It was just an interesting observation.

I see. Perfect. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Kirt

Yes, he's fine. It actually needs to be clear there was nothing bad or neurotic about this. He was a nice guy, and sat through other teachings just like the rest of us, but that teaching was obviously profound, and he was able to understand it, and he kind of went to town with that inspiration in a very Gelug inspired way.

As he was one of the first Western Geshe's the Gelugpa's made him go and do his Geshe debate at all three major Gelug monasteries before they would give him his Geshe degree. I think he's remained a pretty humble practitioner in the service of the Dharma ever since and not sort out any fame or fortune. I rejoice in his merit, I admire him, nice guy from what I remember.

[Alex Hubbard]

[quote="Pema Rigdzin"

Ngodrup, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Nyingma monk or nun who hasn't received anuttarayogatantra empowerment... as as such, monks and nuns have even more vows than we "ngakpas" do. They have their hundreds of monastic vows PLUS all of our tantric samayas. And aside from the vow not to cut one's hair that comes with the hair empowerment of Troma Nagmo, there aren't any special, unique vows or samayas particular to "ngakpas." As such, all inner tantric practitioners are therefore ngakpas, if we're applying that label based upon vows.

Hi Pema Rigdzin,

I was thinking about discussing a point very similar to yours but in the 'Contemporary Tertons' thread not this one. Either way I guess it will work in either. The tértön referenced in the dissertation in that thread, Déchen Ösel Dorje, who is a contemporary tértön, has revealed térmas which contain vows specific to ngakpa clothing and ornaments (I say ngakpa only because I can't recall whether or not ngakmas are invited into the system) and within that new system there are many items of clothing that the ordained ngakpa - following a ceremony where the vows are given - vows to wear during certain ritual occasions, as well as the vow to maintain uncut hair. I remember Malcolm pointing out that one can't speak of a ngakpa ordination per se because of there being no subsequent confession if one were to fail to wear one's ngakpa attire, as there is in the monastic ordination system. Now it seems that that may not be the case, and, this is the only system from which such information is publicly available.

I think it's perhaps useful to consider the possibility that vows in relation to tantric samaya (apart from the root vows I'd imagine) are not identical in different lineages and are not made public, and so some ngakpa lineages may be holding vows relating to the body apart from the hair vows, which because they are not public we may be unaware of.

The térmas of Déchen Ösel Dorje are interesting because they re-emphasise the dual branch history of the Nyingma, giving a specific and clearly delineated religious identity to the white sangha, although not as some sort of contradiction to the red sangha, simply as a defined alternative. One of the implications of such a térma system (and others perhaps) is that they include vows which are both tantric and ngkapa, so to speak, but that may not necessarily occur in tantric systems which are not explicitly ngakpa in orientation. If that is the case then it is possible that a ngapka should not necessarily be equated simply with a holder of inner tantra samaya but with ngakpa tantric samaya. Who knows, perhaps I'm overstating it, but it does as least look like a possibility. I've noticed also that there is more than one definition of a ngakpa, depending on who you ask, which is fine I guess but it does seem to cause some confusion.

All the best,
Alex.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Alex,

This is all interesting, but honestly, the inner tantric/HYT samayas of all the Nyingma and Sarma systems all come down to the same point: maintaining the view of the three vajras. From that point of view, any differences in the letter of these samayas between HYT systems is merely on an outer level; the spirit of the commitments is the same. At their essence, the samayas of each of these systems are all serving the function of facilitating awareness of the 3 vajras, and all practitioners of Anuttarayoga have this commitment whether monk, nun, ngakpa/ma, naljorpa/ma. It makes no difference. This is all the more so when we get into Dzogchen and Mahamudra territory.

Also, both Nyingma and Sarma tantras have many versions of prescriptions for adornment with various examples of fearless heruka attire, etc., at a certain advanced stage on the path of the two stages, so there's nothing new under the sun except some outward variation on the same essential points of conduct.