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 Post subject: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:09 pm 
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I recently read about Jainism and I find it's views and their similarity to Buddhism kind of unsettling.Although Jainism's view on reincarnation and karma are completely different than Buddhism's,some of their beliefs(like the belief that there is no creator god)is quite similar to Buddhism.So could Buddhism be an offshoot from Jainism?

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A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:13 pm 
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Red Faced Buddha wrote:
I recently read about Jainism and I find it's views and their similarity to Buddhism kind of unsettling.Although Jainism's view on reincarnation and karma are completely different than Buddhism's,some of their beliefs(like the belief that there is no creator god)is quite similar to Buddhism.So could Buddhism be an offshoot from Jainism?


I've wondered this same thing.

It seems (from what little I know) that Sramanic traditions had some big commonalities, so I think it's more likely that Buddhism was a later view that co existed with Jainism at a certain point in history (I believe this is actually known), but they were both part pf a continuum of beliefs, rather than Buddhism directly coming from Jainism. I am no historian so i'd for someone who is to go into more detail on this. We are talking about a whole culture of ascetics that generated Buddhism and Jainism though, so I imagine there were many different viewpoints.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shramana#. ... philosophy

There's the wiki..not alot of info but from what i've read it sounds like Jainism and Buddhism are but two of the traditions that survived, rather than being exclusive. You can also see that some of the Sramanic ideas turned around an influenced the Vedic thought that they supposedly sprung up in opposition to.

One related thing that has always confused me - I've heard the Parable of The Blind Men and the Elephant credited to Buddhism and Jainism, but it seems to just be a part of most Indian thought.

*Shrug*

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:28 pm 
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Buddhadharma and Jainadharma as well as various aspects of Vedic teaching, grew within a common culture of concepts and their concomitant symbolism that were found all over Ancient Bharat which included modern India and Pakistan. Which is why all of those Dharmas deploy certain symbols in common..such as the lotus, the chakra, and the conch..
However the Buddha took those concepts ( and their symbols likewise evolved in keeping with the Buddhas refining influence )...like reincarnation and karma and refined and corrected them according to his own understanding...


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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:30 pm 
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In ancient India, all the religions and sects could be classified under three broad categories: Brahmanism, Shramanism and Animism.

Depending on the timeline, initially Brahmanism was just a minority sect just like how Zoroastrianism is in India today (Zoroastrianism is the religion of Irano-Aryan Parsis and Brahmanism was the religion of Indo-Aryans) where as the vast majority of other religions could be classified into either Shramanism and Animism which were the major religions at that time. Proto-Tantric movements were just advanced form of Animism based on nature spirits, gods and other beings.

All Shramanas held some similar set of basic beliefs like the lack of any Creator, the infinite process of birth and rebirth, compassion for beings cause and effect etc. Buddhism, Jainism, Ajivikas etc were the major sects of Shramanas. It was not a religion of lay people and all all Shramanas were renunciates or ascetics.

In some regions in India, Jainism was the first Shramanic religion which was introduced to the people arriving even before Buddhism and Brahmanism : for example, most of the Southern Indian regions had Jainism as the first dominant religion. Jainism was also a major religion of Northern Sri Lanka under some Tamil Kings at one point of time. Buddhism came later, and ousted Jainism in becoming the dominant religion. But eventually it was also exterminated and replaced by Neo-Brahmanism (Vaishnavism and Shaivism) until there was no trace of these regions having any ancient Buddhist or Jain history except for ruins of old temples and caves.

I believe Jainism had some influence in the development of Mahayana as some Mahayana scriptures like Lankavatara Sutra use terms like "Jina" for Buddhas even though it is a Jain equivalent of "Buddha". But in some places in Mahayana sutras the Jains are also called "Tirthikas" (heretics).

PS: Of course, there were also "materialists" and "Atheists" called Charvakas but they were probably negligible minority always.


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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:04 pm 
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The book Huseng (I believe) posted is really helpful:
"Greater Magadha: Studies in the Culture of Early India" by Johannes Brockhorst.
Still reading the book and it goes into pretty great detail on the early traditions.
One thing I have not yet seen mentioned is how there are 24 Jinas/Tirthankara in Jainism, while there are 28 prior Buddhas in certain branches of Theravadan Buddhism and that there seems to have been some overlap between these 2 lists of individuals.

EDIT: Also, Asoka/Ashoka was the grandson of a king (Chandragupta Maurya) heavily talked about in the Jain scriptures who renounced his throne at 42, traveled to a cave in south India, and starved himself to death. Can't help but wonder if Ashoka's form of Buddhism had an extra helping of Jainism.


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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:50 pm 
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PorkChop wrote:
The book Huseng (I believe) posted is really helpful:
"Greater Magadha: Studies in the Culture of Early India" by Johannes Brockhorst.
Still reading the book and it goes into pretty great detail on the early traditions.
One thing I have not yet seen mentioned is how there are 24 Jinas/Tirthankara in Jainism, while there are 28 prior Buddhas in certain branches of Theravadan Buddhism and that there seems to have been some overlap between these 2 lists of individuals.

EDIT: Also, Asoka/Ashoka was the grandson of a king (Chandragupta Maurya) heavily talked about in the Jain scriptures who renounced his throne at 42, traveled to a cave in south India, and starved himself to death. Can't help but wonder if Ashoka's form of Buddhism had an extra helping of Jainism.


Didn't he burn a guy and his family to death because the man painted a painting with Buddha bowing before Mahavira?

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A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Red Faced Buddha wrote:
Didn't he burn a guy and his family to death because the man painted a painting with Buddha bowing before Mahavira?


If the Ashokavadana is to be believed, then the dude was a bit of a psychopath...


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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:30 pm 
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PorkChop wrote:
Red Faced Buddha wrote:
Didn't he burn a guy and his family to death because the man painted a painting with Buddha bowing before Mahavira?


If the Ashokavadana is to be believed, then the dude was a bit of a psychopath...


More like the past life of the popes.

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A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:40 pm 
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Some hagiographies have Siddhārtha Gautama studying under the tutelage of a Jain follower for part of his early studies, before becoming Śākyamuni Buddha.

:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:47 pm 
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viniketa wrote:
Some hagiographies have Siddhārtha Gautama studying under the tutelage of a Jain follower for part of his early studies, before becoming Śākyamuni Buddha.

:namaste:
Well, it is generally agreed he was an ascetic who starved himself. So if he didn't practice Jainism then he practiced something similar.

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Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:16 am 
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See also: viewtopic.php?f=66&t=4921

Jainism is especially similar to Theravada due to both having heavy emphasis on the shramana tradition.

See also this article I wrote: Buddhism and Jainism

According to the sutras of both religions, they both co-existed at the same time. They both probably lifted some concepts and hagiographies back and forth from each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:20 am 
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At least one source suggests the fly whisk (fuzi 拂子) as found in some schools of Buddhism was adopted from Jainism, though they use peacock feather fans. The idea is the same.

Image




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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:20 am 
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Shravasti Dhammika criticizes the Vinaya for having several Jainist vows in them. Particularly the ones about not destroying plants, earth, or seeds.

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Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:43 am 
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Konchog1 wrote:
Shravasti Dhammika criticizes the Vinaya for having several Jainist vows in them. Particularly the ones about not destroying plants, earth, or seeds.


That might have been a regional thing. The Sarvāstivāda Vinaya, at least in its ancient Chinese translation, has a passage about what to do with an insect infestation:

Quote:
《十誦律》卷37:「時比丘或有用澡豆。或有用土。以濕熱故。浴室虫生。佛言。應蕩除令淨。」(CBETA, T23, no. 1435, p. 270, c7-9)
“At one time some bhikṣus were using soap beans while others using earth. As a result of the heat and humidity there were insects born in the bathroom. The Buddha said, 'It should be washed and made clean.'”


The term dangchu 蕩除 here (washed) can also mean to purge or eliminate. This would clearly entail insects being killed, though this for the sake of preserving hygiene in the sangha.

I discussed this briefly with Ven. Dhammika and he said it seems as if some later Indian monks abandoned their Jain-like obsessions.

Actually there were a lot of Jain influences on early Buddhism, both in terms of ethics and practice.

Bronkhorst explains this well in his essay entitled "Self and meditation in Indian Buddhism".


Quote:
Clearer, and even more surprising, is the fact that sometimes the Buddha himself is credited with practices which we can recognise as being typical of early Jainism, and which certain Buddhist text indeed ascribe to Jainas and criticise as such. For example, a Suutra of the Majjhima Nikaaya (the Cuu.ladukkhakkhandha Sutta) and its parallels in Chinese translation describe and criticise the Jainas as practising 'annihilation of former actions by asceticism' and 'non-performing of new actions'. This is an accurate description of the practices of the Jainas. But several other Suutras of the Buddhist canon put almost the same words in the mouth of the Buddha, who here approves of these practices. We conclude from this contradiction that non-Buddhist practices ― this time it clearly concerns Jaina practices ― had come to be accepted by at least some Buddhists, and ascribed to the Buddha himself.


Html:

http://kr.buddhism.org/zen/koan/y_bronkhorst.htm

Pdf version:

http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_EE3F136F6108.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:56 am 
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My apologies.

He didn't say which Vinaya it was from. But he implied it was a Theravadan one. He only said the rules were from sections Pacittiya 10 and 11 and Sekhiya 74 and 75. These sections and rules can be found in the Vinaya on Access to Insight so it's likely the same Vinaya.

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Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:08 am 
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Konchog1 wrote:
My apologies.

He didn't say which Vinaya it was from. But he implied it was a Theravadan one. He only said the rules were from sections Pacittiya 10 and 11 and Sekhiya 74 and 75. These sections and rules can be found in the Vinaya on Access to Insight so it's likely the same Vinaya.


No need to apologize! I was just saying that there are regional variations. :smile:

The Vinaya literature differs from school to school. It is rather peculiar how different much of the details are though most of the rules are more or less the same (the stories behind each rule though often have considerable differences). The number of precepts differ, too.

I could see how Theravada would have more Jain influences given where they settled. The schools that emerged in the north and beyond might have had a lot less long-term exposure to Jain ideas (though in due time they took on a lot of Hellenic influences).

Curiously though Xuanzang in the 7th century reported naked Jain monks in what is now Afghanistan.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:37 am 
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Quote:
I recently read about Jainism and I find it's views and their similarity to Buddhism kind of unsettling.
Yeah... since one is generalising, might as well these too: like the PRC's CPC and the Chinese and Marxism and the Russians and the Ku Klux Klan and the 'Whites' and Apartheid and South Africans and the screwed up Greek Government and the Greeks and Taliban and the Muslims and George W Bush & the Americans... see the point?
Quote:
Although Jainism's view on reincarnation and karma are completely different than Buddhism's,some of their beliefs(like the belief that there is no creator god)is quite similar to Buddhism.
Yeah and the Carvakas and the modern atheists and non agnostic theists and my cats and the point is...
Quote:
So could Buddhism be an offshoot from Jainism?
Let's see what He says...
Quote:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
All-abandoning,
released in the ending of craving:
having fully known on my own,
to whom should I point as my teacher?

I have no teacher,
and one like me can't be found.
In the world with its devas,
I have no counterpart.

For I am an arahant in the world;
I, the unexcelled teacher.
I, alone, am rightly self-awakened.
Cooled am I, unbound.

To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma
I go to the city of Kasi.
In a world become blind,
I beat the drum of the Deathless.'
Quote:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html
"Again, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, the Tathagata here and now enters upon and abides in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints.

That too is a Tathagata's power that a Tathagata has, by virtue of which he claims the herd-leader's place, roars his lion's roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahma.

"Sariputta, when I know and see thus, should anyone say of me:
'The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the Noble Ones.
The recluse Gotama teaches a Dhamma (merely) hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him' —
unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as (surely as if he had been) carried off and put there he will wind up in hell.

Just as a bhikkhu possessed of virtue, concentration and wisdom would here and now enjoy final knowledge, so it will happen in this case, I say, that unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as (surely as if he had been) carried off and put there he will wind up in hell.

"Here, I see no ground on which any recluse or brahman or god or Mara or Brahma or anyone at all in the world could, in accordance with the Dhamma, accuse me thus:
'While you claim full enlightenment, you are not fully enlightened in regard to certain things.' And seeing no ground for that, I abide in safety, fearlessness and intrepidity.

"I see no ground on which any recluse... or anyone at all could accuse me thus: 'While you claim to have destroyed the taints, these taints are undestroyed by you.'
And seeing no ground for that, I abide in safety, fearlessness and intrepidity.

"I see no ground on which any recluse... or anyone at all could accuse me thus: 'Those things called obstructions by you are not able to obstruct one who engages in them.'
And seeing no ground for that, I abide in safety, fearlessness and intrepidity.

"I see no ground on which any recluse... or anyone at all could accuse me thus: 'When you teach the Dhamma to someone, it does not lead him when he practices it to the complete destruction of suffering.' And seeing no ground for that, I abide in safety, fearlessness and intrepidity.

"A Tathagata has these four kinds of intrepidity, possessing which he claims the herd-leader's place, roars his lion's roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahma.

"Sariputta, when I know and see thus, should anyone say of me... he will wind up in hell.
And the Buddha Dharma an offshoot of the Jains?

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:46 am 
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plwk wrote:
And the Buddha Dharma an offshoot of the Jains?


I don't think so. The Buddha was aware of Jains and clearly disagreed with them on many matters. However, both his tradition and Jainism arose in Magadha from the same cultural background. Being that they were both śramaṇa traditions from Magadha there were bound to be similarities, but ultimately Buddhadharma is quite distinct from the Jain Dharma.

A lot of similarities can be attributed to the fact both traditions were native to Magadha.

That being said, the scriptures that we have now are full of later influences that are difficult to discern from the original teachings. Old habits die hard and some disciples, already being long practicing śramaṇas before coming to the Buddha's sangha, would have brought with them their own ideas and practices which were at odds with what the Buddha taught.

We actually do the same thing in the present day (like introducing feminist ideas into the sangha and Buddhist thought thinking it only natural and appropriate).

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism and Jainism
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:36 am 
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A good book about the milieu in which the sramanic traditions developed as well as how it interacted with the Brahmanic traditions is Geoffrey Samuel's The Origins of Yoga and Tantra.


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