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Konchog1 wrote:I've been thinking about this for a while but I can't figure it out.
My understanding is that Svatantrika criticizes Prasangika by saying that without inherent existence any given collection of aggregates can be labeled as anything.
So a book could be labeled a cat, car, or cloud. Why not? There's no inherent nature.
1. Is this understanding of the criticism correct?
2. What is the Prasangika refutation?

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:By the way I don't think you would find any prasangika who would accept the criticism as stated. We cannot just apply different labels to things. My karma forces me to see the car as a car and the mere act of labeling it as something else won't change my karma.

viniketa wrote:Konchog1 wrote:I've been thinking about this for a while but I can't figure it out.
My understanding is that Svatantrika criticizes Prasangika by saying that without inherent existence any given collection of aggregates can be labeled as anything.
So a book could be labeled a cat, car, or cloud. Why not? There's no inherent nature.
1. Is this understanding of the criticism correct?
2. What is the Prasangika refutation?
1) In essentials, it would seem so. 2) The response began with Nāgārjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā and carried-on through Tsongkapa and his students. The Prasaṅgika response was the doctrine of Śūnyatā (emptiness ).
futerko wrote:Could either of you please let us know where we might find this discussed?
Also, I'm not really sure what the contention is here. It seems strange to think that anyone would argue a car is so named because of its "carness"...

It's on Berzin's website. But I can't find the article again. Someone please post a link if you know the article I'm talking about.futerko wrote:Could either of you please let us know where we might find this discussed?
Also, I'm not really sure what the contention is here. It seems strange to think that anyone would argue a car is so named because of its "carness"
Konchog1 wrote:I've been thinking about this for a while but I can't figure it out.
My understanding is that Svatantrika criticizes Prasangika by saying that without inherent existence any given collection of aggregates can be labeled as anything.
So a book could be labeled a cat, car, or cloud. Why not? There's no inherent nature.
1. Is this understanding of the criticism correct?
2. What is the Prasangika refutation?
Thank you and Merry Lord Tsongkhapa Day.
Konchog1 wrote:
So a book could be labeled a cat, car, or cloud. Why not? There's no inherent nature.
The Gelug Discussion of the Svatantrika and Prasangika Views
Participant: What did you say? If it can’t be labeled then that means it has inherent existence from its own side?
Participant: If it exists independent of being labeled, then it would have to have its own inherent nature.
Alex: So let us clarify that. If something existed… Let’s clarify that. This can be clarified, that statement. If something could not be labeled—did not exist as what it was, dependent on the label—then… So what makes it what it is? What makes this a table? We call it a table and it performs the function. There are many criteria that it has to satisfy. We couldn’t call it a dog. We could call it a chair. You could call it a dog, but that wouldn’t be a valid label.
Participant: You could call it a dog if you defined the word “dog” differently.
Alex: Yes, you could make up any sound. You could call it a dog—was the comment—if you defined the sound “dog” to mean something that this table could do. But, I mean, there… I don’t want to go into all the detail of this—this you can study later—about what is a valid label and what’s an invalid label. Obviously it has to make sense. It has to be able to function. But if it wasn’t that…
What makes this a table is—well, we call it a table on the basis of its function and its parts, and all that sort of stuff. Then the alternative would be that there’s something independent of that that makes it a table. So what would make it a table—independent of parts, and conditions, and conventions, and words, and functions, and all of that—it would be something inherent, inside the thing, that by its own power, independent of anything else, makes it a table. So then you get into the whole discussion—and I don’t want to go into in detail—but is there some findable, defining characteristic on the side of the table that it has to satisfy and so, in conjunction with mental labeling, that makes it what it is? The Svatantrika say yes. The Prasangika say no. That’s the distinction between those two schools, according to Gelug. Non-Gelug define it differently. According to the Gelugpa school, that’s the difference....
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... ?query=car

So function or other valid consciousnesses? Hmm. See below.Sonny wrote:Therefore, I cannot label my bell "car." This object can receive the label "bell," but not "car" or "airplane." It receives the label "bell' by virtue of the way the valid base functions. Mere labelling by mind is not enough — there has to be a valid base. In the case of a bell, the base has to have a certain shape and perform the function of ringing.
Now, regarding this valid base, this phenomenon that has the function of ringing and possesses this particular shape, our mind creates the label, "bell." This, then, is the real bell, the bell that we use, the one that is merely imputed by our mind, the valid base that is labelled "bell" by our mind."
Very interesting thank you!viniketa wrote:Reader's Digest version: At its root (pre-dating Buddha) is the central philosophy of the seed syllable, which posits that sound "creates" the world. Fast forward several hundred years and there are many schools of thought that place the "essential" (read self-contained) characteristics of things in the world as central in explaining how & why they exist in the world. Ātman is the "essential" part of humans. Then Buddha and anātman. Then Buddhist schools that wander back toward reifying ātman, including the Sarvāstivāda and its offshoot, the Sautrāntra. Next enter Nāgārjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā and, a couple of hundred years later, Vasubhandu and the Abhidharmakośa and its bhāṣya (which is where you will find the bulk of the exposition of the Sarvāstivāda and Sautrāntra positions; Vasubandhu is often said to have started-out as a Sautrāntika). Then Dignāga, Candrakīrti (who perfects the doctrine of Prasaṅga), Dharmakirti. Fast forward again to Tibet and Tsongkhapa's mission to permanently disavow the doctrines of the "Hinayana" and his embrace of Prasaṅga as the "highest" form of logic.
Lord Tsongkhapa talks about this in the LRCM. I'll reread it.Tom wrote:So after all that bah..blah.. I realized my answer to your question may not have been obvious. My point was the last one " it is important to note that just because something is imputed it does not necessarily have to exist" that although all conventional minds are mistaken Tsongkhapa makes a distinction between valid mistaken and invalid mistaken. For something to be conventionally valid designation it must be:
1. not undermined by another mind that is conventionally valid (valid and mistaken)
2. not undermined by another mind that is ultimately valid (valid and unmistaken)
3. Accords with worldly convention
Calling a book a car fails this test and so is not conventionally valid designation.
P.S. I think Chandra's explanation in the 6th chapter of entering the middle way is much more simple approach!
There we go. thank you. My question was based on this line:viniketa wrote:Berzin certainly uses cars a lot as an example... I think I found the page:
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... ?query=car
Does that look familiar?
In other words, what the Svatantrikas are saying is that everything exists in terms of mental labeling—exists as what it is, in terms of mental labeling. But in order to insure that that mental labeling is valid, there has to be some inherently existing defining characteristics on the side of the object that makes it what it is—in conjunction with mental labeling.
So part of the conditions for something to exist relatively is other consciousnesses.There is nothing from the snake's side that is inherently "snake" and nothing from the rope's side that is inherently "rope". [The mistaking the rope for a snake exercise] By this time in the argument Svatantrika scholars would be throwing their hands up and demanding to know how anything can then be determined. Surely, then, we can label anything on anything and it will valid. There must be something from the snake's side that determines it is a snake as opposed to a rope. The Prasangika response is a flat "no!," there is nothing. [...] "Valid" and "wrong" consciousnesses are determined by another valid consciousness that analyzes their validity. That's the only difference. From the object's side, whether it is the coiled rope or the reptile, there is nothing existing as a snake objectively or ontologically. It is posited entirely by the conventional consciousness.
viniketa wrote:Then Dignāga, Candrakīrti (who perfects the doctrine of Prasaṅga), Dharmakirti. Fast forward again to Tibet and Tsongkhapa's mission to permanently disavow the doctrines of the "Hinayana" and his embrace of Prasaṅga as the "highest" form of logic.
Konchog1 wrote:Lord Tsongkhapa talks about this in the LRCM. I'll reread it.Tom wrote:So after all that bah..blah.. I realized my answer to your question may not have been obvious. My point was the last one " it is important to note that just because something is imputed it does not necessarily have to exist" that although all conventional minds are mistaken Tsongkhapa makes a distinction between valid mistaken and invalid mistaken. For something to be conventionally valid designation it must be:
1. not undermined by another mind that is conventionally valid (valid and mistaken)
2. not undermined by another mind that is ultimately valid (valid and unmistaken)
3. Accords with worldly convention
Calling a book a car fails this test and so is not conventionally valid designation.
P.S. I think Chandra's explanation in the 6th chapter of entering the middle way is much more simple approach!
Tom wrote:Of course Candrakīrti and Dharmakirti could not have held more opposite positions. I don't understand the second sentence here - could you say a little more on this...

viniketa wrote:Tom wrote:Of course Candrakīrti and Dharmakirti could not have held more opposite positions. I don't understand the second sentence here - could you say a little more on this...
It may be beneficial to look at the positions of Candrakīrti and Dharmakīrti as orthogonal and complimentary rather than opposite.
viniketa wrote: In the second sentence, I should have said Tsongkhapa's mission to permanently 'disallow' or 'dismiss' the doctrines of the "Hinayana"... rather than "disavow". Hopefully, that clears-up the meaning.
Tom wrote:I was more wondering what you had in mind with "doctrines of the hinayana" - it seemed you had something specific in mind.

viniketa wrote:Tom wrote:I was more wondering what you had in mind with "doctrines of the hinayana" - it seemed you had something specific in mind.
No specific Hinayana doctrine, no. Tsongkhapa's primary mission was to establish his ("the Gelug") view as the highest teaching as defined by the 'expository' sutras, such as Saṃdhinirmocana, etc. He was a logical and political genius, but not a diplomat the way we would think of that task today. By adopting and adapting the Prasaṅga approach, he was able to portray the Sarvāstivāda/Sautrāntra and other "Hinayana" schools as vastly inferior - not to mention the views of his more contemporary opponents.
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