Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby Tara » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:30 am

PLEASE NOTE

There is a procedure to follow if any member is not happy with an act of moderation:

From the Terms of Service-Reporting Procedures

If you have a complaint about an act of moderation...

Attempt to resolve the issue with the moderator in question first (if known, and if online) via PM, and if that is unsuccessful, please raise the issue with an adminstrator via PM. If your complaint is against an administrator, tell the other administrator. Complaints will be investigated by an administrator using the Terms Of Service as a framework. The words and actions of all members (including moderators and administrators) will be assessed with respect to the Terms Of Service and you will be notified of the outcome of your complaint via PM or e-mail. As with public complaints about posts, please do not publicly complain about moderation, as that is disruptive to the forum and is not the appropriate method for resolving such disputes.

If you're still unhappy about the outcome, after all that...

If after all that, you're still dissatisfied, contact site owner, David N. Snyder via PM. He owns this site and therefore he has the final word.


For everyone's information posts are removed from view not deleted. The majority of posts which are removed are the constant stream of spam posts.
Tara

**********************************************************
Maybe you collect a lot of important writings,
Major texts, personal instructions, private notes, whatever.
If you haven’t practiced, books won’t help you when you die.
Look at the mind – that’s my sincere advice.

**********************************************************
from Longchenpa's 30 Pieces of Sincere Advice

Mors certa — hora incerta
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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:50 am

Lobster and Muni, true words.

It seems that many here—especially myself—who are inclined to such a view have not always remembered to see all individuals as Deities & Buddhas and all existence as a Pure Dimension, when posting here.


JKhedrup wrote:I spent time at Sera but never debated, so can only hazard a half-informed opinion. I think that the style of the debates is quite structured and requires the citation of traditional treatises by the Indian Pandits and their Tibetan commentaries. So you might find it a bit constricting for your taste :tongue:


I think that I would actually be mostly fine with that.

However it's not Dharma-specific topics that I'm talking about when referring to moderators deleting posts here. It has often happened in sections like the Lounge, the 'Dharma "Free-for-All"', and other sections that aren't necessarily Buddha-Dharma-specific. As I'd said, in my opinion it's great to see more quoting of Dharma sources (from various Buddhas, Masters, etc.), and less opinions.


ground wrote:What is qualified? Qualified for what?

If qualification and non-qualification arise it is manifestation of cult. What cult? Consciousness' cult ... consciousness grapsing itself, affirming itself, making a cult of itself. :sage:


Well what I meant was that it is a question that perhaps we ought to ask ourselves, in light of the quotes posted from Atisha, Geshe Tenzin Zopa, and Khunu Lama Rinpoche, in the original post in this thread. I was just putting it out there, not necessarily as something for us to speculate on about who here is Clairvoyant and who's not.


Tara

My apologies for not becoming familiar with all of the terms & conditions. The last PM I received from one of the moderators in question came off as so condescending that I chose not to reply to it. So as you said, the next step would have been to contact an administrator; which I may do if I decide to keep posting here after this thread....

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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:46 pm

The last PM I received from one of the moderators in question came off as so condescending that I chose not to reply to it.


I am saying this as an opinion and not as a moderator (I don not now the specific context of your comment).

Part of learning Buddhism over the past years (albeit not very well), has been for me to make an effort to communicate with people who I might not want to communicate with. Any communication is in a way better than no communication, and if we perceive arrogance, anger etc. from the "other person" we should persist in trying to communicate with them (bar very ugly arguments). This is because, especially over the internet, we cannot know the persons intentions. And even if they aren't the best, we should still try to communicate, because it is a wonderful opportunity to put the teachings on patience and transformation we have received into practice. :namaste:
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby Jikan » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:06 pm

JKhedrup wrote:I don't know about you guys but even after years of being in the dharma I would say most of my actions of Body, Speech and mind and tainted by the disturbing emotions (maybe I am just not diligent enough).


This is my experience as well. My own shortcomings become more and more obvious to me as I continue to practice (including the shortcomings in my practice).
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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:25 pm

JKhedrup, there is very specific reason why I chose to not reply to this particular PM (part of the reason being so that it would not turn into a very ugly argument, as it very well could have); although to say any more about it here would be perceived as a public complaint about moderation (Terms of Service), so I'll stop talking about it in this thread and also acknowledge the difference between posts getting deleted and posts getting removed.

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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:01 pm

I'm no expert on anything Buddhist, nor on Dharmawheel being pretty new, however i've spent enough time on forums to know that threads about moderation usually don't serve a useful purpose. Forums are not a democracy, and the rules of the moderators go, whether you believe them to be right or wrong. I've been in your position before, it's frustrating.

Continuing to question moderation, or insinuate that moderation is unfair (even if true) in a public forum, rather than with the person involved will typically just bait others, and make yourself mad. It can serve none of the "good" purposes your numerous quotes are alluding to. Your remedy was given by the mods, it's probably best to pursue that if you choose to stay and stop tormenting yourself publicly by asking why your experience with moderation was so terrible...just keep in mind that whoever is right or wrong simply isn't the point, and can get you nowhere, surely any Buddhist can agree that endless contention over being right in a conflict is not productive - right?

I don't mean to sound judgmental, but if you are really that upset with a specific person, it seems like an an ineffective remedy to waste time on publicly airing it, rather than either taking it up with that person in an open hearted manner, or just letting it go.

Hope none of that was too sanctimonious, like I said i've been in your position and I just feel like this approach is mainly just going to make you angry and get you nothing - regardless of whether you were actually treated unjustly...that simply isn't the point.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby dharmagoat » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:34 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Hope none of that was too sanctimonious, ...

Sensible.
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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:01 pm

Johnny Dangerous,

Well like you said you haven't been posting here for very long and if you'd saw what went down a few months ago when a bunch of people left, this is nothing. In fact now that I think about it, I believe that the Term of Service mentioned above by Tara was actually put in place because of what happened back then. So I guess I was aware of the said term of service somewhere in the back of my mind when I posted this thread, but assumed that it meant something along the lines of not publicly complaining about moderators by name or something to that effect.

At any rate my mentioned complaint wasn't even the main reason for posting this thread. I'd just realized that my posting on forums was starting to become counterproductive—at least as things currently stand in my circumstances—and the said reason for my complaint is what finally made me want to actually act on my idea of not—even if just temporarily—posting anymore; and that also made me recall the quotes posted in the initial post of this thread, the said quotes being:



Chögyal Namkhai Norbu quoting Shantideva wrote:There is nothing that the offspring of the Victorious Ones do not learn, there is nothing that does not produce merits for the wise who act in accord with this principle.
Atisha and Geshe Tenzin Zopa wrote:All Buddhas say the cause for the completion
Of collections, whose nature is
Merit and exalted wisdom
Is the development of higher perception.


Training oneself to develop the training in the Method teachings through cultivating Bodhicitta and training in Wisdom through developing one’s understanding and realisation of emptiness (i.e. the selflessness of person and of phenomena), are the two main causes which will lead us to gain higher perception in order for us to benefit sentient beings. “Higher perception” refers to clairvoyance, which is needed to benefit sentient beings properly. This is important in order for us to understand the different mental dispositions of sentient beings. If someone is not matured enough to receive emptiness teachings and we give them emptiness teachings, we could cause them to develop wrong view and create the causes for hell; but if they are ready for emptiness and tantra and you focus only on giving the small capability-being teachings, you could distract them from the Mahayana and lead them to the Hinayana path, which incurs heavy karma.

Khunu Lama Rinpoche wrote:One thing that really helps us complete these two collections is the ability to foresee the future; therefore, we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.
Vajranatha on Commentary to the Bönpo Book of the Dead wrote:...the Trikaya having come into manifestation in this self-arising fashion, they now come to accomplish the benefits of countless beings. Unlike the practice of Tantra, where this transformation of one's total being and environment into pure vision requires the deliberate effort of the mind in terms of visualization, mantra recitation, and so on, here in Dzogchen the transformation occurs as vision, naturally and spontaneously, without effort. In this way, Dzogchen realizes the ultimate goal of Tantra. One may now accomplish the welfare and instruction of all sentient beings, spontaneously and without effort, by simply being, that is to say, by manifesting one's enlightened nature through spontaneously emanating an infinity of Nirmanakaya manifestations. This occurs naturally, effortlessly, and spontaneously, without discursive thoughts, as the free expression of one's inherent energy or compassion, like the sun radiating countless rays of light into the clear open sky, thereby illuminating the entire surface of the earth.



Hopefully some will benefit by reading this, and, if anyone here does read them sincerely with an open mind, they just might benefit from reading them considering that this is a Buddhist forum. Better yet, some might even be inspired to give up Buddhism and instead take up the practice of the Buddha Dharma. ;) :buddha1:

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Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:15 pm

Lhug-pa,
To my knowledge you have not sent any of the other moderators feedback recently, so in all fairness you haven't even tried the procedures of ToS to deal with your grievance (and I have to be honest I am still unclear about exactly what the grievance is). Also, your arguments are now becoming circular, and you are starting to name names.

Are you really comfortable with your motivation for continuing to post in this thread?
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:27 pm

JKhedrup wrote:and you are starting to name names.


All I said was that Tara mentioned one of the Terms of Service in this thread. Aside from mentioning Tara, I don't see me naming anyone else; and again my mentioning of Tara was no complaint at all, simply a mentioning of her pointing out the Terms of Service. So with all due respect, how could this get perceived as publicly-complaining/naming-names? :?


JKhedrup wrote:Are you really comfortable with your motivation for continuing to post in this thread?


No further complaints. Was simply replying to Johnny Dangerous, that's all.

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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:29 pm

Next time just give our complaints procedure a shot... We deserve a chance (none of us are paid to be here, and you should check out what some of the unmoderated forums on the internet are like)
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby Tara » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:49 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Well like you said you haven't been posting here for very long and if you'd saw what went down a few months ago when a bunch of people left, this is nothing. In fact now that I think about it, I believe that the Term of Service mentioned above by Tara was actually put in place because of what happened back then.


No they were not put in place because of what happened a few months ago in fact the Terms of Service have been in existence in one form or another since the early days of Dharma Wheel, the earliest mention and version I can find for the Terms of Service dates back to April 2009.

To repeat what I said in this post viewtopic.php?f=66&p=141710#p141643 if anyone is not happy about an act of moderation please refer to the Terms of Service-Reporting Procedures.

Thread locked.
Tara

**********************************************************
Maybe you collect a lot of important writings,
Major texts, personal instructions, private notes, whatever.
If you haven’t practiced, books won’t help you when you die.
Look at the mind – that’s my sincere advice.

**********************************************************
from Longchenpa's 30 Pieces of Sincere Advice

Mors certa — hora incerta
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Re: Asserting Our Opinions and Posting on Internet Forums (?)

Postby Tara » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:38 pm

To clarify:


The Terms of Service-Reporting Procedures, where publicly complaining about acts of moderation is mentioned, was added to the ToS in November 2010 as can be seen by the date of the post viewtopic.php?f=109&t=2616 and has nothing whatsoever to do with what happened a few months ago. There has been no alteration/amendment/addition to the Reporting Procedures since they were added.
Tara

**********************************************************
Maybe you collect a lot of important writings,
Major texts, personal instructions, private notes, whatever.
If you haven’t practiced, books won’t help you when you die.
Look at the mind – that’s my sincere advice.

**********************************************************
from Longchenpa's 30 Pieces of Sincere Advice

Mors certa — hora incerta
User avatar
Tara
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3752
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:59 am
Location: Here.

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