theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby tomamundsen » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:23 am

kirtu wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
kirtu wrote:However in the Theravadin tradition it is taught that a lay person attaining Arhathood has to become a monk or nun within a short time (like a day) or else they would die.

To be frank, it sounds like it just exists to create sectarian superiority.


Howso?

Well, it rules out the possibility of outsiders being arhats. If you're not part of the group, you must be dead if you were an arhat. So, outsider arhats can't exist according to that rule.
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby freefromsamsara » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:38 pm

villkorkarma wrote:dalai lama has said that own enligthenment for just oneself isnt real enligthenment. Why´s that`?

the dalai lama is just another human being and you can't expect any human to be totally right all the time..

one achieve enlightenment for his own sake and not for any other person's sake..

the dalai lama spouted that piece of bs because he wanted spiritual practitioners to delay their own enlightenment in order to help the less enlightened fools on this planet evolve..

as far as i am concerned, enlightenment is an individual path.. you do not delay your own enlightenment for anyone else on this planet.. not even for your own spouse and kids..
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby freefromsamsara » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:42 pm

Seishin wrote:He means practicing a path for ones own gain and not helping other people. Plenty of Theravada Buddhists do Bodhisattva work helping other people. And plenty of Mahayana Buddhists are selfish and only after personal gain and vica versa. This is what we call the human condition. :smile: I'm a Mahayana Buddhist, sometimes I can be really selfish but other times I can be very generious. It's part of my practice to not be so selfish :smile:

Gassho,
Seishin.


selfishness and unselfishness has nothing to do with enlightenment

there are plenty of yogis who keep their spiritual knowledge to themselves and who refuse to take on disciples or as little disciples as possible..

these yogis, due to their insistence on isolating themselves from the rest of humanity, thus face little obstacles on their spiritual path which the rest of humanity present..

these yogis are able to reach enlightenment because of their "selfishness".. this is a trait to be admired and studied..

for this "selfishness" if called Right Selfishness.
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby freefromsamsara » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:44 pm

seeker242 wrote:I don't ever recall the Dalai Lama saying theravada buddhist doesn't get real enlightenment. What he is saying IMO, is that selfish people don't get real enlightenment, which is quite reasonable to say. :)


really? plenty of "selfish" yogis have achieved enlightenment compared to the "unselfish" mahayana buddhists of yours
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby freefromsamsara » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:45 pm

villkorkarma wrote:My mistake, iI wrote wrong, dalai lama said: its important to help other people. according to my own way It isnt right to not be helpfull to other beings
book is called my way to sucess.


the dalai lama only preaches peace.. he doesn't preach enlightenment.. peace is a totally different thingy from enlightenment..
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby Seishin » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:07 pm

freefromsamsara wrote:for this "selfishness" if called Right Selfishness.


The nine fold path?? :shrug:
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby PorkChop » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:30 pm

freefromsamsara wrote:the dalai lama only preaches peace.. he doesn't preach enlightenment.. peace is a totally different thingy from enlightenment..


and what is enlightenment but the ultimate inner peace?
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby freefromsamsara » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:53 pm

PorkChop wrote:
freefromsamsara wrote:the dalai lama only preaches peace.. he doesn't preach enlightenment.. peace is a totally different thingy from enlightenment..


and what is enlightenment but the ultimate inner peace?


there are many shamans and monks who use their samadhi to chase away and eliminate demons, evil spirits and malevolent ghosts.. would you call their war on evil "peaceful"?

there are scores of buddhic guardians who use all sorts of violence to destroy demons and evil spirits .. vajrakilaya is once such buddhic guardian.. would you call vajrakilaya "non-peaceful" or varjrakilaya's war on evil "peaceful"?

inner peace is different from being a peaceful coward.. a warrior can use all sorts of violence to strike down evil and yet still be at total peace inside him..
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby PorkChop » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:30 am

While there are mentions of "wrathful" emanations that are used to wipe away ignorance & delusion, I think you should probably look at the stories in the sutras for some good examples...

For starters, it's interesting to note that in the story, the Buddha did not go head to head & fight Mara, with his armies when Mara attacked him under the Bodhi tree; the Buddha turned their arrows to flowers.
In the Jataka tale where in a former life the Buddha, as a ship's captain, killed the murderer planning to kill 500 merchants aboard the ship - he did so, not just out of compassion for the 500 merchants, but because of the innumerable eons the murderer himself would be in hell if he were allowed to carry through with that act. The Buddha volunteered to undergo that hell himself.
In the tale of Angulimala, the Buddha does not fight Angulimala with force. In fact, he invites Angulimala to kill him if it will make him happy. Using skillful means, he moved at an easy pace while Angulimala tired himself out. When Angulimala was exhausted, the Buddha convinced Angulimala to turn his life around.

While I don't know much about the methods Padmasambhava used to dispel the evil spirits of Tibet, for example; I do have one anecdote that I've heard first hand from a monk. Regardless of whether it's true or not, I find it a beautiful story. A hungry ghost was bothering a local family, they called in the monk for help. The family seemed to think their estranged daughter who'd recently died in a car crash was responsible for the disturbances. Instead of battling the hungry ghost, the monk told me he invited her to his home for dinner. See, she didn't feel love in her life and she was returning to the family's house for that love. When the monk showed her some kindness, inviting her home, the disturbances stopped.

In the Dhammapada it's said that anger used to fight anger will only lead to more anger.
EDIT: Violence only leads to more violence.
Even Abraham Lincoln mentioned "the only way to conquer my enemy is to make him my friend."

Peace and compassion go hand in hand. As Konchog has in his signature, compassion and emptiness go hand in hand as well.
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby greentara » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:26 am

'whatever you perceive is your phenomena. When you have
purified your karmic vision and become a Buddha, then from
your point of view, where are the other sentient beings?"
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby viniketa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:49 am

villkorkarma wrote:My mistake, iI wrote wrong, dalai lama said: its important to help other people. according to my own way It isnt right to not be helpfull to other beings
book is called my way to sucess.


HHDL never wrote a book by that title. I think those posting on this thread my be feeding a troll... :thinking:

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby freefromsamsara » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:44 am

PorkChop wrote:While there are mentions of "wrathful" emanations that are used to wipe away ignorance & delusion, I think you should probably look at the stories in the sutras for some good examples...

For starters, it's interesting to note that in the story, the Buddha did not go head to head & fight Mara, with his armies when Mara attacked him under the Bodhi tree; the Buddha turned their arrows to flowers.
In the Jataka tale where in a former life the Buddha, as a ship's captain, killed the murderer planning to kill 500 merchants aboard the ship - he did so, not just out of compassion for the 500 merchants, but because of the innumerable eons the murderer himself would be in hell if he were allowed to carry through with that act. The Buddha volunteered to undergo that hell himself.
In the tale of Angulimala, the Buddha does not fight Angulimala with force. In fact, he invites Angulimala to kill him if it will make him happy. Using skillful means, he moved at an easy pace while Angulimala tired himself out. When Angulimala was exhausted, the Buddha convinced Angulimala to turn his life around.

While I don't know much about the methods Padmasambhava used to dispel the evil spirits of Tibet, for example; I do have one anecdote that I've heard first hand from a monk. Regardless of whether it's true or not, I find it a beautiful story. A hungry ghost was bothering a local family, they called in the monk for help. The family seemed to think their estranged daughter who'd recently died in a car crash was responsible for the disturbances. Instead of battling the hungry ghost, the monk told me he invited her to his home for dinner. See, she didn't feel love in her life and she was returning to the family's house for that love. When the monk showed her some kindness, inviting her home, the disturbances stopped.

In the Dhammapada it's said that anger used to fight anger will only lead to more anger.
EDIT: Violence only leads to more violence.
Even Abraham Lincoln mentioned "the only way to conquer my enemy is to make him my friend."

Peace and compassion go hand in hand. As Konchog has in his signature, compassion and emptiness go hand in hand as well.


Anger is a virtue if used in a rightful and proper manner. For anger brings about courage in the face of negativity. For eg, the tibetan monks setting themselves on fire to protest the atrocities committed against them by the invading chinese. That act of self-sacrifice is an act of valor worthy of study.

Violence can also be committed without anger. Plenty of martial arts teach one to kill without emotions without anger nor pity. In fact, zen meditation teaches you to wipe your mind free of hatred and love so that you face no obstructions whatsoever in whatever you do.

Which is why the japanese are some of the best martial artists in the world . Cos they know how to cause damage with single-pointed concentration without anger or pity/love clouding their minds.

vajrakilaya and padmasambhava also subdued many evils without having hatred in their minds.. there are plenty of evil in the world which can't be reasoned with and must be destroyed in order to make this universe a better place..
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby freefromsamsara » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:52 am

as an example, if i ever see a tiger who wants to kill a monk because the tiger is hungry for food to appease its baser instincts, then i would have no hesitation in killing the tiger immediately without hatred or pity..

because to let the tiger eat a monk, a monk who wants no other objective in life than to evolve himself into an enlightened buddha, is a sin worse than killing a million ordinary people..

the life of one monk is worth a million lives of ordinary mundane people.. the life of one buddha is worth a billion lives of ordinary mundane people..
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Re: theravadabuddhist doesnt get real enlightenment

Postby Indrajala » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:55 am

This thread is clearly corrupted.

Let's end this here for now.
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