Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:48 pm

Ven. Charama,

So I do not make a distinction between titles, orders, robe colors, and the number of Precepts one takes. I know those who take more Precepts are very deeply committed to the Dharma. But I also know anyone who takes Precepts and begins the journey has embarked on a noble Path and requires my respect, and possibly my assistance.


Your order chose to make these distinctions when you gave your clergy titles such as "Sramanera" "Venerable" and "Bodhisattva Monk". If you did not wish to make distinctions, you would not use such titles.

We can see your order makes these distinctions from viewing this webpage, on this page: http://www.fmzo.org/clergy.html
Here the website uses this word "Sramanera". This is a sanskrit word (samanera in Pali) that indicates someone who has taken the 10 vows of novices outlined in the Vinaya of Lord Buddha as a I mentioned above. Now, if this person holds those vows, including celibacy, then of course there is no problem. But the person had long hair and makeup, and the paragraph mentioned they were engaged, which indicates to me there is a possibility they are a housholder. In which case, it would be very inappropriate to use a term outlined by Lord Buddha in his monastic code to describe such a person. At best, it is a dangerous error coming from misunderstanding, at worst a deliberate misrepresentation.

Could you clarify for us, do these people hold monastic vows? If you say yes, I will take your word for it, as a fellow Buddhist, and will not inquire about this in the thread again. If they do not hold monastic vows, I ask you not to use the term sramanera, defined by Lord Buddha as describing a man (sramaneri for women) holding the 10 precepts, but to find some other title. Not out of consideration to me, but out of consideration to Lord Buddha who laid out very clearly the Vinaya, and out of consideration for the living Vinaya holders today who need to be supported in transmitting the precepts.

And in case you think that I am against non-monastic clergy, this is far from the case. I have taken lungs (oral transmission) from Khamtrul Rinpoche, a lay lineage holder in Dharamsala India, and I have studied with several lay Vipassana teachers. Here on Dharma Wheel you will also encounter people with ngakpa ordination- lay tantric ordination. They do not use Vinaya titles to describe themselves, and have a clear lineage that is transmitted to them from their teachers, with different terminology and precepts. I have no objection and their tradition has produced some great teachers. But none of them claimed to be monks/nuns.
Last edited by JKhedrup on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:54 pm

The IBMC, from what I understand, no longer exists.


This is clearly not the case.

The webpage here http://www.ibmc.info/ indicates that a new abbot was appointed to take the reigns from Ven. Karuna Dharma, he is a Theravada monk named Ven. Shanti. I cut and pasted a little blurb from the webpage that follows:

On November 11, 2012 the Ven. Karuna Dharma stepped down as Abbess of the I.B.M.C. after 32 years of service. Her students will carry on her teachings and the new Abbot Ven. H. Shanti will carry on the 40 year tradition of the I.B.M.C., promoting Buddhism and meditation in English. The I.B.M.C. is an independent not-for-profit Buddhist meditation and dharma center.


Rev. Kusala Bhikshu, the monk who I mentioned, is the main meditation teacher, leading classes at IBMC three evenings a week and teaching throughout the Los Angeles Area.

For those who are interested the actual facebook page of IBMC seems to be this one: http://www.facebook.com/IBMCLA
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Ven. Charama Bhavika » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:07 pm

JKhedrup wrote:
So I do not make a distinction between titles, orders, robe colors, and the number of Precepts one takes. I know those who take more Precepts are very deeply committed to the Dharma. But I also know anyone who takes Precepts and begins the journey has embarked on a noble Path and requires my respect, and possibly my assistance.


Your order chose to make these distinctions when you gave your clergy titles such as "Sramanera" "Venerable" and "Bodhisattva Monk". If you did not wish to make distinctions, you would not use such titles.

We can see your order makes these distinctions from viewing this webpage, on this page: http://www.fmzo.org/clergy.html
Here the website uses this word "Sramanera". This is a sanskrit word (samanera in Pali) that indicates someone who has taken the 10 vows of novices outlined in the Vinaya of Lord Buddha as a I mentioned above. Now, if this person holds those vows, including celibacy, then of course there is no problem. But the person had long hair and makeup, and the paragraph mentioned they were engaged, which indicates to me there is a possibility they are a housholder. In which case, it would be very inappropriate to use a term outlined by Lord Buddha in his monastic code to describe such a person. At best, it is a dangerous error coming from misunderstanding, at worst a deliberate misrepresentation.

Could you clarify for us, do these people hold monastic vows? If you say yes, I will take your word for it, as a fellow Buddhist, and will not inquire about this in the thread again. If they do not hold monastic vows, I ask you not to use the term sramanera, defined by Lord Buddha as describing a man (sramaneri for women) holding the 10 precepts, but to find some other title. Not out of consideration to me, but out of consideration to Lord Buddha who laid out very clearly the Vinaya, and out of consideration for the living Vinaya holders today who need to be supported in transmitting the precepts.

And in case you think that I am against non-monastic clergy, this is far from the case. I have taken lungs (oral transmission) from Khamtrul Rinpoche, a lay lineage holder in Dharamsala India, and I have studied with several lay Vipassana teachers. Here on Dharma Wheel you will also encounter people with ngakpa ordination- lay tantric ordination. They do not use Vinaya titles to describe themselves, and have a clear lineage that is transmitted to them from their teachers, with different terminology and precepts. I have no objection and their tradition has produced some great teachers. But none of them claimed to be monks/nuns.


Thank you for your additional questions, JKhedrup.

When I wrote that we don't make distinctions, I didn't mean we don't try to mirror the traditions of the past and present (which includes trying to find appropriate titles for those who take advanced Precepts). I meant that we welcome all, regardless of their traditions, orders, or affiliations. We make no distinction or judgments regarding what other traditions or orders hold dear. In other words, we are not a respecter of persons regardless of their color, gender, race, order, or tradition. We revere all human beings.

I'm probably not explaining myself correctly. For that, I apologize.

Maybe this will help better explain what I mean:

In the book Tell Me Something About Buddhism by Zenju Earthlyn Manuel, Thich Nhat Hanh writes this in the introduction:

Buddhism is like a tree that is constantly growing and adapting to the new lands and cultures it is brought to. For the Buddha's teachings to stay healthy and vibrant, we must constantly renew and update them so they remain relevant and effective for the increasingly diverse communities that practice them.


That's about as good an explanation as I can offer.

If we err in your view, we do so without malice or disrespect - to you, your traditions, or to the Lord Buddha. We're not trying to tear down any of the Lord Buddha's teachings. In no way, shape, or form do we mean to show the Lord Buddha disrespect.

Maybe, in your eyes, we have gone too far. Maybe we're wrong. But we err only in a difference of perspective, not in rejection of the Lord Buddha's teachings. We're humbly trying to do what Thich Nhat Hanh urges us all to do with the Buddha's teachings: "...constantly renew and update them so they remain relevant and effective..."

If that causes you to reject us and our work, there is nothing I can do to change your opinion. I would be sad if you judged us thus. But there is nothing I can do about it. I respect you, your position, your knowledge, and your teaching.

There is a scripture in the Christian tradition:

A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. (Matthew 7:18-20 ESV)


Buddhism has been around for well over 2,500 years. It exists in myriad forms and is practiced in countless countries. It is not the same in each place in which it is practiced.

For us, in the West in the 21st century, we're doing our level best to make Zen relevant to those around us. If in, say, 10 years we have not shown compassion, and love, and kindness to fellow human beings, if we have not a track record of changing lives for the better, if we do not fulfill our twin goals of helping others wake up to their true nature and to serve them by asking, in all situations, without measure, "How may I help you?" then you may judge the "fruit" of our efforts as you see fit.

Until then, I humbly ask that you respect our sincere efforts to forge, perhaps, a new kind of Zen in the West. One that tries hard to embrace elements of both worlds -- the West, and ancient East -- without diminishing the wisdom of either.

I have no other answer than that.

I thank you for allowing me to do my best to explain my meaning, and our intention as the Five Mountain Zen Oder.

Many Bows,

Charama
"If you want to attain your true nature, you must have Great Faith, Great Courage, and Great Question. It is like a three-legged stool...With these supporting your practice, you can attain your true self. You can attain universal substance, and attain your correct way, and truth, and make your life correct. Then you can help all sentient beings get out of suffering. That is our job."

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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby SonofRage » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:13 pm

With all due respect, that seems like a rather long-winded non-answer wrapped in Zen language where a simple "I don't know, I'll find out" would have been more useful if you really just don't.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Ven. Charama Bhavika » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:17 pm

JKhedrup wrote:
The IBMC, from what I understand, no longer exists.


This is clearly not the case.

The webpage here http://www.ibmc.info/ indicates that a new abbot was appointed to take the reigns from Ven. Karuna Dharma, he is a Theravada monk named Ven. Shanti. I cut and pasted a little blurb from the webpage that follows:

On November 11, 2012 the Ven. Karuna Dharma stepped down as Abbess of the I.B.M.C. after 32 years of service. Her students will carry on her teachings and the new Abbot Ven. H. Shanti will carry on the 40 year tradition of the I.B.M.C., promoting Buddhism and meditation in English. The I.B.M.C. is an independent not-for-profit Buddhist meditation and dharma center.


Rev. Kusala Bhikshu, the monk who I mentioned, is the main meditation teacher, leading classes at IBMC three evenings a week and teaching throughout the Los Angeles Area.

For those who are interested the actual facebook page of IBMC seems to be this one: http://www.facebook.com/IBMCLA



Thank you for this information, JKhedrup.

This clearly points out the difference between IBMC and Ven. Thich Thien-An's teaching/learning institution originally known as the American University of Oriental Studies, and known by various names over the decades as the head teachers passed away.

The Five Mountain Zen Order has no affiliation with IBMC, which is why I have heard conflicting reports on IBMC from many different people. If the venerable institution known as IBMC still exists, the world is a better place for it. What a wonderful resource for the world!

Again, we have been given the responsibility of carrying on Ven. Thich Thien-An's teaching/learning institution, not IBMC. Apparently, IBMC is in very capable hands and will continue on its own very well. We will do our best with Ven. Thich Thien-An's teaching/learning institution.

I am grateful for your information.

Many Bows,

Charama
"If you want to attain your true nature, you must have Great Faith, Great Courage, and Great Question. It is like a three-legged stool...With these supporting your practice, you can attain your true self. You can attain universal substance, and attain your correct way, and truth, and make your life correct. Then you can help all sentient beings get out of suffering. That is our job."

- Zen Master Seung Sahn
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:33 pm

If as the page indicates Ven. Karuna Dharma passed on the abbotship of IBMC to Ven. Shanti, then it would seem that he holds the lineage of Ven. Dr. Thich Thien An as well. (Of course, this does not mean that only one organization can hold the lineage. Perhaps there are several.) Indeed, the photos on the website and the way it is written indicate that this is the tradition that is being brought forward at IBMC- the tradition of the late Ven. Thich Thien An.

If the new abbot were not transmitting the tradition of Ven. Dr. Thich Thien An it would have been very bizarre for Ven. Karuna Dharma to pass the abbotship to him.

Again, we have been given the responsibility of carrying on Ven. Thich Thien-An's teaching/learning institution, not IBMC.


What do the abbot and resident Sangha at IBMC think about this? Again, several of them including Ven. Kusala, knew Ven. Dr. Thich Thien An when he was still alive. Did the founder of your order ever meet VEn. Thich Thien An?
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby jisahn108 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:06 pm

Blah blah blah.

This new Five Mountains proxy, like all Lynch's students is literally and figuratively invested in vindicating him, but notice how he still fails to answer the central question. He gives the same answer Lynch and his many proxies have given for four years now. On the question of whether or not the letter from Moore stating unequivocally that Lynch is NOT a lineage heir of him, or Seung Sahn, as he still continues to claim, Lynch has said for years:
1) There is a backstory, but only my (dues paying) members and students need to know it.
2) The letter was written by Moore's close students, not by Moore - but never denying the letter's reality, or its contents.
3) Repeatedly, Lynch has stated he will "issue a public statement very soon" about the issue. Years have passed.

Answer the question: is the letter denying Lynch any teaching authorization (much less transmission) accurate, or not?

1) If it isn't accurate, why then did Lynch only call himself a Ji Do Poep Sa Nim for almost a year after the letter was made public? (Answer: because he didn't have the pathological cojones to call himself anything else yet.)
2) Why then, with no change in status, did he start calling himself Soen Sa Nim a few months later? (Answer: he found them.)
3) Why did he call himself "sensei" for a year, implying Japanese lineage authorization, and claim he was engaged in "advanced koan studies" with James Ford, when Ford says they met casually twice and never did koan work together? Why did he stop doing so? Why did he lie, claiming he never said these things when confronted about them on Facebook? (Answer: because he's a pathological liar, which is in keeping with the letter from Moore saying he has issues and shouldn't be teaching anyone.)
4) Why did he start calling himself "Chanshi" when he never studied Chan or received transmission from a Chan teacher? (Answer: a rolling, many titled stone gathers more students.)
5) Why did he give "transmission" to jiun/Myogak Foster when it wasn't his to give? And why did Foster and senior student Al Billings immediately leave and form their own Zen school, within a few months of Lynch himself declaring himself a Zen master? (Answer: because Foster is as big a "fibber" as Lynch and wanted to be a "grand master" possibly even worse than Lynch himself. Like attracts like. And Billings isn't far behind, with an opinion on every subject on every Buddhist chat room on the interwebs.)

It's is obvious that Lynch is fully aware that his claims for authorization through Moore to be a great Zen patriarch as he transparently longs to be considered were shaky, to phrase it generously. So he has in four years fraudulently tried on four different traditions with at best the most tenuous connections to those traditions, if any at all. Now he found a weak link in a moribund organization, wedged himself in there, and is working the angle like any good grifter would.

All of Lynch's students say "he's a great guy, and a great teacher." Of course they do. What else are they going to say? "we happily pay money and allegiance to someone we think is a liar and scumbag"? How about some clear, honest, plausible answers to the specific questions about his history. Oh I know why. Because the truth is the transparent farce laid bare here, and makes everyone involved with him look like gullible fools, or worse.

But oh yes, let's just shut up and "give them ten years" to show how compassionate and wise they are. Yeah, that's what we should do. I'm sorry for pointing out Paul Lynch's last four years of lies. None of that matters at all, I'm sure.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby windsweptliberty » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:40 pm

Perhaps it would be best to help Paul Lynch and his students. We are, as Buddhist, encouraged to help.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:53 pm

But help how? By continuing to ask for answers to serious questions about lineage and precepts? By agreeing to go our separate ways and wish Paul Lynch and his students the best? By trying to bring Paul Lynch and his students back into a the more mainstream Buddhist fold? By encouraging his students to train with other teachers who seem to have more solid lineage links?

Your statement is very open-ended.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby windsweptliberty » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:34 pm

According to my understanding of The Kwan Um School. It is, "an international organization of Zen centers and groups founded under the direction of Zen Master Seung Sahn. The School began with the establishment of its international head temple, the Providence Zen Center, in 1972. Over the years, Zen Master Seung Sahn and his students have helped establish dozens of centers and groups around the world. In 1983, this growth led to the formal organizing of the Kwan Um School of Zen, with the purpose of providing cohesion and administrative support to all of it’s centers. Kwan Um means “perceive world sound,” to compassionately hear the cries of the universe." Based on this information and in the understanding that Paul Lynch was foramally taught by zen master Robert Moore, student of Master Seung Sahn -founder of the Kwan Um School -this school should have envolvement with Paul Lynch and his students. Although Master Moore abdicated his affiliation with the Kwan Um School, and may have given Paul Lynch inga after Mr. Moore's removal from the Kwan Um School (the Kwan Um School inga which, according to master Moore was later retracted due to the medical needs of Paul Lynch) I think the head Kwan Um temple should, out of respect to both the lineage and to Paul Lynch, see if Mr. Lynch is of sound health to teach successfully as well as offer their sincere and active assistance in assuring that the the dharma that is being taught remains pure to the lineage. This is the phone number to the head temple in Providence, RI. (401) 658-1464. I am unaware of Paul Lynch's affiliation with IBMC although, once again, I feel that the head temple (temples if this involves two lineages, ie. IBMC) could offer their assistance in promotion of Buddhist Harmoney and knowledge of the truth.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Jikan » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:49 pm

I am positive the Kwan Um school is aware of Lynch, Foster, et al. I assume if its leadership felt it appropriate to speak publicly on it, they would. They haven't, to the best of my knowledge.

I'm interested in seeing how Lynch addresses his relationship to his claimed lineage in his forthcoming blog post.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby KeithA » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:13 am

Jikan wrote:I am positive the Kwan Um school is aware of Lynch, Foster, et al. I assume if its leadership felt it appropriate to speak publicly on it, they would. They haven't, to the best of my knowledge.

I'm interested in seeing how Lynch addresses his relationship to his claimed lineage in his forthcoming blog post.


That is correct. Paul Lynch has severed his ties with the Kwan Um folks (which I am a member with) many years ago, although personal relationships still exist. The lineage thing is impossible to address, because it doesn't exist. It isn't rocket science. Even taking the Five Precepts generates a paper trail, never mind something as significant as inka. Mr. Lynch has gone beyond inka and just granted himself transmission. From whom, that is for the prospective student to figure out, I suppose. I don't think that precludes him from calling himself whatever he wants and if folks want to practice under his tutelage, that's their business. But please leave Kwan Um out of it, as there is no formal relationship with Mr. Lynch, from a lineage perspective or otherwise.

Take care,
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby jisahn108 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:38 am

Sometimes help comes in the form of a slap in the face. There are a number of zen stories of "zen masters" whose lies trapped them in long cycles of confusion and suffering, until they come crawling to some honest upright person to set them upright again. Even if we simply interpret such stories psychologically, I wouldn't want to be the guy lying about being the holder of various ancient dharma lineages. That is some heavy shit to carry around and attempt to defend. No wonder his health is so bad. I'd know I'd be sick as a dog to be that fundamentally out of synch with actual verifiable reality. Personal and otherwise.
And while lynch practiced with Kwan um for many years, he left with Moore, the teacher who refused to give him transmission, and told him to stop teaching at all. I've talked to Kwan um vets who knew him, and say he had issues about power and status back in the day, and that while distressing, not everyone is surprised at his current behavior.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby windsweptliberty » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:28 pm

This is a very sad situation which demands a compassionate approach. Both sides have a very valid point of view. Still, I would think that the Kwan Um lineage would feel a deep sense of respnsiblity to help their former student and that student's pupils in any way possible. And that their responsibility would increase in the knowledge that he might be leading with egotism. I mean no offense to the Kwan Um School, but perhaps this is why Paul Lynch abducated from this particular school - does the school care? Are the roots strong enough to hold the tree upright? Please be kind in your speech, I truly mean no offense.

In other words. This Paul Lynch of this lineage would not exist at all if it were not for the Kwan Um School that taught Paul Lynch. There in lies the responsiblity.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Yudron » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:08 pm

windsweptliberty wrote:This Paul Lynch of this lineage would not exist at all if it were not for the Kwan Um School that taught Paul Lynch. There in lies the responsiblity.


I don't understand. It seems there is a certain kind of person who views him or her self as a teacher, and are bound to go off and do their own thing if they spend a few years, or a lot of years, studying Dharma with any teacher or group and authorization to teach is not given. There seems to be some personality types that are always, and have always, found any way they can to do this. This seems to be ubiquitous throughout Buddhism, and probably other religions as well. I don't think the lineage is responsible for this. Except that perhaps they should just put on their website unambiguously everyone who is authorized to teach, as I noticed Spirit Rock and other centers do, so that no one else can claim they are. But, I think, based on experience with Tibetan lamas, the notion of administrative super-clarity and direct communication is more a Western notion... correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Jikan » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:45 am

Yudron wrote:
windsweptliberty wrote:This Paul Lynch of this lineage would not exist at all if it were not for the Kwan Um School that taught Paul Lynch. There in lies the responsiblity.


I don't understand. It seems there is a certain kind of person who views him or her self as a teacher, and are bound to go off and do their own thing if they spend a few years, or a lot of years, studying Dharma with any teacher or group and authorization to teach is not given. There seems to be some personality types that are always, and have always, found any way they can to do this. This seems to be ubiquitous throughout Buddhism, and probably other religions as well. I don't think the lineage is responsible for this. Except that perhaps they should just put on their website unambiguously everyone who is authorized to teach, as I noticed Spirit Rock and other centers do, so that no one else can claim they are. But, I think, based on experience with Tibetan lamas, the notion of administrative super-clarity and direct communication is more a Western notion... correct me if I'm wrong.


They do:

http://www.kwanumzen.org/teachers-and-t ... her-index/

and they have done so at least since the late 1990s. I agree with the thrust of your post, though: I just don't see how Kwan Um can be held responsible for Lynch's actions, or Foster's. Lynch is the one who is responsible for Lynch's actions, given that Lynch is not teaching under the auspices of the Kwan Um organization, or by the permission of any of Kwan Um's teachers.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby KeithA » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:55 am

windsweptliberty wrote:This is a very sad situation which demands a compassionate approach. Both sides have a very valid point of view. Still, I would think that the Kwan Um lineage would feel a deep sense of respnsiblity to help their former student and that student's pupils in any way possible. And that their responsibility would increase in the knowledge that he might be leading with egotism. I mean no offense to the Kwan Um School, but perhaps this is why Paul Lynch abducated from this particular school - does the school care? Are the roots strong enough to hold the tree upright? Please be kind in your speech, I truly mean no offense.

In other words. This Paul Lynch of this lineage would not exist at all if it were not for the Kwan Um School that taught Paul Lynch. There in lies the responsiblity.




This post is highly speculative and reads much into the situation. Unfortunately, I know just enough to know I don't know very much, so I will refrain from commenting much further. Paul Lynch has many friends in Kwan Um and if he were to decide that he would like to return to practicing with us, I am sure he would be welcomed, though I doubt as a transmitted teacher, which he clearly isn't. That is his decision, though. And, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. Kwan Um has no responsibility whatsoever, with respect to Paul Lynch's behavior.

My own view is that he seems to well liked by his students, and that is good enough for me. Lineage is not necesary to be a teacher, although personally, I would not practice with someone who was without it. Different strokes, and all. :namaste:
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby Yudron » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:04 am

Jikan wrote:They do:

http://www.kwanumzen.org/teachers-and-t ... her-index/

and they have done so at least since the late 1990s. I agree with the thrust of your post, though: I just don't see how Kwan Um can be held responsible for Lynch's actions, or Foster's. Lynch is the one who is responsible for Lynch's actions, given that Lynch is not teaching under the auspices of the Kwan Um organization, or by the permission of any of Kwan Um's teachers.


Then, I'm with you... I just don't see what more than can do.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby windsweptliberty » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:03 am

This convoluted controversy is based on Paul Lynch's usage and/or claim to the lineage without formal rights via dharma transmission. It is clear that Paul Lynch studied so I simply suggest that his teacher's school/ his school see if they can provide any solution or support amidst this controversy. I truly want to see success for Paul Lynch and his sangha/his students - success that is strengthened by legitimacy and the respect of the Buddhist community.
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Re: Five Mountain Zen Order & Paul Lynch

Postby jisahn108 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:44 am

Once again, I don't seem to understand why you folks can't see that the problem isn't that he says he's a zen teacher. Fine. It's that he has pathologically lied and inflated his creds for years. Period.
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