Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

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Indrajala
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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Indrajala » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:47 pm

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

Jnana
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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Jnana » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:09 pm

:good:

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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Aemilius » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:45 pm

svaha

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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Aemilius » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:57 pm

svaha

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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby pueraeternus » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:08 am

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica

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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby pueraeternus » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:43 am

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica

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Indrajala
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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Indrajala » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:01 am

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

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Aemilius
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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Aemilius » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:00 pm

Thanks!

There are a lot more things to this issue than has been taken so far. One of them is that religions are like icebergs floating in the sea, what is visible is only one ninth part of them. When Shakyamuni Buddha taught in India he was aware of the whole Earth, or aware of the whole Trichiliocosm, He saw the immediate effect of His teaching, what kind of responses there were to it world wide. This means that the all of the religions and cultures on Earth have to do with Enlightenment. These are unseen things, but things that must not be dismissed. This means for example that Bible has several stories that describe their reactions to enlightenment, like the Golden calf (which is the Enlightened one), the Tower of Babylon (Turning of the Wheel of Dharma), Garden of Eden (World before enlightenement, i.e. the state of Ignorance), etc...

Also, there have been many cultures that were wholly oral, or mostly oral, in their knowledge, like the Mayans, Incas, Aboriginal cultures of Australia, etc... Seeing buddhism as a culture of literature is a modern european misconception that is far removed from the truth. In the egyptian tradition the study of writing began when the students were 40 years of age, this was preceded by 14 or more years of oral studies.
The meaning of knowledge is quite different in an oral culture.
svaha

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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Aemilius » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:11 am

svaha

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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Aemilius » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:40 am

svaha

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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Aemilius » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:55 am

We can see Buddhism going through three phases:

1. The period of oral tradition.

2. A transitional period, when oral tradition and written tradition exist simultaneously, most likely still competing with each other, and augmenting each other. This period is actually quite long, and probably not all monks and laity could even read! I only know Huineng as a person well known for his illiteracy.

3. Period when all of the sutras and most of their commentaries exist in a written form.

With the help of of the oral traditions of Mayas, Incas, etc we should be able to gain a better understanding of this aspect of buddhist history.
svaha

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Anders
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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Anders » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:03 am

"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra

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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Aemilius » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:51 pm

I very much appreciate the work of Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Maurice Walshe and Bhikkhu Bodhi, yet it seems to me that when you go deeper, there is a clear karmic and ideological continuity from the philosophers like Voltaire to the events that took place in 1800's, when european intellectuals and radicals got to know about different buddhist traditions, both sravakayana and mahayana. As we know the theosophist & buddhist Colonel Olcott did great amount of buddhist missionary work in Sri Lanka. He has been regarded as a national hero for srilankans on account of that. Even the famous srilankan buddhist of the 1800's, Anagarika Dharmpala, was told by theosophists, -I can't remember whether it was Helen Blavatsky herself-, to concentrate on studying buddhism, instead of theosophy. As a result he became a world famous buddhist. Then we have the Meiji restauration in Japan, which meant that the clergy of all schools of buddhism had to include european philosophy in their studies, by japanese imperial degree. There has been an european element in the development of various schools of japanese buddhism after the 1800's. It is difficult to know what the Zen or Pureland schools or Theravada were like before the european interest and before confrontation with european rationalist philosophy? Or what would they be like without it?
Facts and events of this kind are present everywhere in modern buddhism, on a deeper level. And on its surface, what you take to be japanese or thai etc, may in fact be inherited from contact with european rationalistic world view. Works of european philosophers have been translated into mongolian, korean, japanese etc, and they have been studied and read assiduously. Long ago I heard from a buddhist artist, who visited mongolia, that they knew there absolutely everything about european philosophy and literature, because they all exist in mongolian translation.
svaha

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Aemilius
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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Aemilius » Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:26 pm

svaha

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songhill
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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby songhill » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:14 am

The Zen or Ch'an lineage is not without some major problems. It is certainly known among scholars that Shen-hui, in his essay, changed Dharmatrata's name (an Indian patriarch) to Bodhidharma. Some Tibetan doc. still record a Bodhidharmatrata which is a combination of Bodhidharma and Dharmatrata.

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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:50 pm

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica

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Aemilius
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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Aemilius » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:16 pm

Archeological and textual evidence will lead you astray, they are beside the point. The point is that Buddha taught a method, a method to realize nirvana. All evidence is included in that, in the state of Nirvana. If you merely study the words of the method, like studying ancient instructions of swimming while neither yourself nor your teacher or his teacher swimming personally, you will be lead very far from the truth indeed!
It is also like the modern history that is being decided upon by influental states and politicians in confidential and secret meetings. This history is then taught to the citizens in the media, in primary education, in cinema, and in the culture generally. Then everybody knows it and it is taken for granted, all the while it is a fabricated truth, a fabricated reality, but it becomes very concrete. So much so that if you happen to know the actual truth you will be alienated and weird.
In the same way at first in India they methodigally dried to destroy buddhism for two to three hundred years. Then they saw that they had to accept it, and they made a version of it that was backed by the authorities. It was legalized, and anything else became underground. This marks the beginning of the sravakayana. Sravakayana is a highly corrupt and highly censored version of the history of Dharma. It is a politically accepted truth, backed by the authorities. It is like humanity is. Same kind of things happen everywhere.
The abhijñas and the content of enlightenment itself is a complicated question. The vision of reality occurs in a given historical situation, then there is the problem of communicating this vision to the listeners. The listeners vary in their capacity and in their understanding. At some point someone of them writes down this vision of reality, according to his understanding. Then it is edited by other persons according to their understanding, and so on,... At the same time there is a public reality that is fundamentally a fabrication. Now how do you think a truth could ever be told? or could ever remain?
There is in fact no iron clad outer reality or an iron clad outer world. Its existence is only presumed by the writers of history, generally speaking.
svaha

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pueraeternus
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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:54 pm

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica

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Aemilius
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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby Aemilius » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:08 pm

svaha

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pueraeternus
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Re: Sri Simha in Zen/Chan lineage

Postby pueraeternus » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:12 am

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica


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