Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:02 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:its quite common in the suttas for the Bhagavan Buddha to say he has ended death,rebirth and in turn gives the deathless/immortal.
That's a far out interpretation of the Buddhas statement. Deathlessness does not mean immortality of the self, deathlessness refers to breaking the cycle of dependent arising, not ever being reborn again and thus not dying ever again. Your interpretation is flawed because you grasp to this notion of true Self as being something other than no-self.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7884
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby conebeckham » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:13 pm

There are definitely Tantric transmissions that refer to the deathless nature, which does relate to "mind" or "Consciousness" or "Awareness," but it's a mistake to say that such a thing is "self." All this stuff is just a reflection of clinging to one or another imputation.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2424
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:30 pm

Jnana wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:yea and your point?

That the Buddhadharma isn't an ātmavāda.

it isnt False Self of the 5 Aggreagates.hence in the redpine translation it says so they will give up their projection of the unreal self surely you are are aware of the 2 self teachings that is found in the Lankavatara?(self being the Pure undefiled mind) as it is stated in all Tathagatagarbha sutras.

[

    O Mahāmati, with a view to casting aside the heterodox theory, you must treat the tathāgatagarbha as not self (anātman).


Therfore,Mahamati,in order to avoid the views of the followers of other paths,you should rely on the selfless Tathagatagarbha
thats actually easy to explain the self in this case is the EGO False self(5 aggregates) the Tathagatagarbha is the True SELF (as it is stated in all the sutras) so what the meaning is "you should rely on the EGOLESS self(Tathagathagatagarbha)" or rely on the True self not the false self.(hence the 2 self teachings in the Lankavatara and the Nirvana sutras teaching on the 5 aggreagates false self and the Tathagatagarbha True self.(Red Pine translation)

can i further prove this?
what is NO SELF XXIV pg 101"And what does it mean to know that dharmas have no self? it means to be aware that the self-existance of the Skandhas,dhatus,and ayatanas is imaginary.THIS is what no self is talking about it has nothing to do with the True Self of the Tathagatagarbha,

So lets look at your qoute again: O Mahāmati, with a view to casting aside the heterodox theory, you must treat the tathāgatagarbha as not self (anātman).
what it is saying is you should treat the Tathagatagarbha(self) as NOT being the 5 Skandhas.(remember in the Pali canon Not self is again in reference to the 5 Skandhas are Not-Self)
Son of Buddha wrote:I can also point in in the Lankavatara sutra where the Buddha says Emptiness is an imagined reality and the view should be avoided.

All conceptual views should be avoided.[/quote]
even no self as I already posted in above qoute.
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:34 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:its quite common in the suttas for the Bhagavan Buddha to say he has ended death,rebirth and in turn gives the deathless/immortal.
That's a far out interpretation of the Buddhas statement. Deathlessness does not mean immortality of the self, deathlessness refers to breaking the cycle of dependent arising, not ever being reborn again and thus not dying ever again. Your interpretation is flawed because you grasp to this notion of true Self as being something other than no-self.
:namaste:



what is NO SELF XXIV pg 101"And what does it mean to know that dharmas have no self? it means to be aware that the self-existance of the Skandhas,dhatus,and ayatanas is imaginary.THIS is what no self is talking about it has nothing to do with the True Self of the Tathagatagarbha

not being reborn and not dying is life without end hence you dont die no death no rebirth=immortal heance deathless
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:47 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Therfore,Mahamati,Bodhisattvas who seek the Highest goal should purify(defilements that stain)the Tathagatagarbha"
How can you stain the stainless? Seems that you are relying on some pretty shoddy translations/interpretations.
:namaste:


the Translation is from Red Pine LXXXII (Final questions) pg 243
this part was me showing the meaning (defilements that stain)(since this is what is being purified off the Tathagatagarbha)

also again the defilements are on top of the Tathagatagarbha(I think you get the idea)
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added chapter and page number to reference
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:58 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:Therfore,Mahamati,in order to avoid the views of the followers of other paths,you should rely on the selfless Tathagatagarbha
There is no need to add your warped interpretation, the meaning of the sentence is quite clear.
Son of Buddha wrote:not being reborn and not dying is life without end hence you dont die no death no rebirth=immortal heance deathless
If you are not reborn then how can you live?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7884
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:11 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:Therfore,Mahamati,in order to avoid the views of the followers of other paths,you should rely on the selfless Tathagatagarbha
There is no need to add your warped interpretation, the meaning of the sentence is quite clear.

Yes as the sutra says No self is in refernece to the 5 Skandhas(thats not my interpretation)The Tathagatagarbha isnt the 5 Skandhas


Son of Buddha wrote:not being reborn and not dying is life without end hence you dont die no death no rebirth=immortal heance deathless
If you are not reborn then how can you live?
:namaste:


the fact the Tathagatagarbha dosent die. "I" and "you" wont live forever (thats the 5 Skandhas)
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:22 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:its quite common in the suttas for the Bhagavan Buddha to say he has ended death,rebirth and in turn gives the deathless/immortal.
I found this in the Suzuki translation of the Lankavatara Sutra:
At that time again, Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva said this to the Blessed One: Is the Blessed One, the Tathagata, the Arhat, the Fully-Enlightened One, permanent or impermanent?
Said the Blessed One: Mahamati, the Tathagata is neither permanent nor impermanent. Why? Because either way there is a fault connected with it. Mahamati, what fault is connected with either assertion?1 If the Tathagata is permanent, he will be connected with the creating agencies. For, Mahamati, according to all the philosophers the creating agencies are something uncreated and permanent. But the Tathagata is not permanent [in the same sense] as the uncreated are permanent. If he is impermanent, he will be connected with things created. Because the Skandhas which are predicable as qualified and qualifying are nonexistent, and because the Skandhas are subject to annihilation, destructibility is their nature. Mahamati, all that is created is impermanent as is a jug, a garment, straw, a piece of wood, a brick, etc., which are all connected with impermanency. Thus all the preparations for the knowledge of the All-Knowing One will become useless as they are things created. On account of no distinction being made, the Tathagata, indeed, would be something created. For this reason, the Tathagata is neither permanent nor impermanent.
1 Following T'ang.
Again, Mahamati, the Tathagata is not permanent for the reason that [if he were] he would be like space, and the preparations one makes for Tathagatahood would be useless. That is to say, Mahamati, space is neither permanent nor impermanent as it excludes [the idea of] permanence and impermanence, (218) and it is improper to speak of it as characterised with the faults of oneness and otherness, of bothness and not-bothness, of permanence and impermanence. Further, Mahamati, it is like the horns of a hare, or a horse, or an ass, or a camel, or a frog, or a snake, or a fly, or a fish; [with the Tathagata] as with them here is the permanency of no-birth. Because of this fault of the permanency of no-birth, the Tathagata cannot be permanent.
However, Mahamati, there is another sense in which the Tathagata can be said to be permanent. How? Because the knowledge arising from the attainment of enlightenment [ = an intuitive understanding] is of a permanent nature, the Tathagata is permanent. Mahamati, this knowledge, as it is attained intuitively by the Tathagatas, Arhats, Fully-Enlightened Ones, is, indeed, permanent. Whether the Tathagatas are born or not, this Dharmata, which is the regulative and sustaining principle to be discoverable in the enlightenment of all the Sravakas, Pratyekabuddhas, and philosophers, abides, and this sustaining principle of existence is not like the emptiness of space, which, however, is not understood by the ignorant and simple-minded. Mahamati, this knowledge of enlightenment belonging to the Tathagatas comes forth from transcendental knowledge (prajnajnana); Mahamati, the Tathagatas, Arhats, Fully-Enlightened Ones do not come forth from the habit-energy of ignorance which is concerned with the Citta, Manas, and Manovijnana, and the Skandhas, Dhatus, and Ayatanas. The triple world originates from the discriminating of unrealities, but the Tathagatas do not originate from the discriminating of unrealities. Where duality obtains, Mahamati, there is permanency and impermanency because of its not being one. Mahamati, [the truth of] absolute solitude is, indeed, non-dualistic1 because all things are characterised with non-duality and no-birth. For this reason, Mahamati, the Tathagatas, Arhats, Fully-Enlightened Ones are neither permanent nor impermanent. Mahamati, as long as there is word-discrimination, (219) there follows the faulty notion of permanency and impermanency. The destruction of the notion of permanency and impermanency as held by the ignorant, Mahamati, comes from the getting rid of the knowledge that is based on discrimination, and not from the getting rid of the knowledge that is based on the insight of solitude. So it is said:
1. By keeping away permanency and impermanency, [and yet] by keeping permanency and impermanency in sight, those who always see the Buddhas will not expose themselves to the power of the philosophical doctrines.
2. When permanency and impermanency are adhered to all the accumulation [one makes for the attainment of reality] will be of no avail; by destroying the knowledge that is based on discrimination, [the idea of] permanency and impermanency is kept back.
3. As soon as an assertion is made, all is in confusion; when it is understood that there is nothing in the world but what is seen of the Mind itself, disputes never arise.

Here Ends the Fifth Chapter, "On the Deduction of the Permanency and Impermanency of Tathagatahood."
http://lirs.ru/do/lanka_eng/lanka-nondiacritical.htm
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7884
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby viniketa » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:24 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:not being reborn and not dying is life without end...


Actually, "immortal" and "deathless" refer to death without end.

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
User avatar
viniketa
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:39 am
Location: USA

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:31 pm

And I also found this interesting passage:
Again further, Mahamati, there are five groups of people, each of whom attains its own [spiritual] insight. What are the five? They are: (1) the group of people whose insight belongs to the Sravaka-vehicle; (2) the group of people whose insight belongs to the Pratyekabuddha-vehicle; (3) the group of people whose insight belongs to the Tathagata-vehicle; (4) the group of indefinite character; and (5) the group of people to whom no insight is possible.

Mahamati, how does one know the group of people whose insight belongs to the Sravaka vehicle? There are people the hair of whose body will stand on end when they know and realise the nature of the Skandhas, Dhatus, Ayatanas, and [what is meant by] generality and individuality; their intellect will leap with joy on knowing and practising what belongs to appearance and not on practising what they know of the uninterrupted chain of causation, —such ones, Mahamati, are said to be of the group whose insight belongs to the Sravaka vehicle. Having had an insight into their own vehicle, they abide at the fifth or the sixth stage where they do away with the rising of the passions, but not with the habit-energy; they have not yet passed beyond the inconceivable transformation-death, and their lion-roar is, "My life is destroyed, my morality is established, etc."; they will then discipline themselves in the egolessness of persons and finally gain the knowledge of Nirvana.

Again, Mahamati, there are others who, believing in such things as ego, being, vital principle, nourisher, supreme spirit, or personal soul, will seek Nirvana in them. Again, Mahamati, there are still others who, seeing that all things exist by depending upon causes, will recognise in this the way to Nirvana. But, Mahamati, as they have no insight into the egolessness of things, there is no emancipation for them. This, Mahamati, is where those of the Sravaka-vehicle and the philosophers make the mistake in their insight by regarding non-deliverance as deliverance. Therefore, Mahamati, you ought to discipline yourself in order to escape this wrong view.
Well then, I wonder what type of twisting and turning you will execute in order to explain this one?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7884
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:37 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:the fact the Tathagatagarbha dosent die. "I" and "you" wont live forever (thats the 5 Skandhas)
According to this logic all beings are immortal, without having to realise Nirvana, since all beings possess Tathagatagarbha.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7884
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:48 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:its quite common in the suttas for the Bhagavan Buddha to say he has ended death,rebirth and in turn gives the deathless/immortal.
I found this in the Suzuki translation of the Lankavatara Sutra:
At that time again, Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva said this to the Blessed One: Is the Blessed One, the Tathagata, the Arhat, the Fully-Enlightened One, permanent or impermanent?
Said the Blessed One: Mahamati, the Tathagata is neither permanent nor impermanent. Why? Because either way there is a fault connected with it. Mahamati, what fault is connected with either assertion?1 If the Tathagata is permanent, he will be connected with the creating agencies. For, Mahamati, according to all the philosophers the creating agencies are something uncreated and permanent. But the Tathagata is not permanent [in the same sense] as the uncreated are permanent. If he is impermanent, he will be connected with things created. Because the Skandhas which are predicable as qualified and qualifying are nonexistent, and because the Skandhas are subject to annihilation, destructibility is their nature. Mahamati, all that is created is impermanent as is a jug, a garment, straw, a piece of wood, a brick, etc., which are all connected with impermanency. Thus all the preparations for the knowledge of the All-Knowing One will become useless as they are things created. On account of no distinction being made, the Tathagata, indeed, would be something created. For this reason, the Tathagata is neither permanent nor impermanent.
1 Following T'ang.
Again, Mahamati, the Tathagata is not permanent for the reason that [if he were] he would be like space, and the preparations one makes for Tathagatahood would be useless. That is to say, Mahamati, space is neither permanent nor impermanent as it excludes [the idea of] permanence and impermanence, (218) and it is improper to speak of it as characterised with the faults of oneness and otherness, of bothness and not-bothness, of permanence and impermanence. Further, Mahamati, it is like the horns of a hare, or a horse, or an ass, or a camel, or a frog, or a snake, or a fly, or a fish; [with the Tathagata] as with them here is the permanency of no-birth. Because of this fault of the permanency of no-birth, the Tathagata cannot be permanent.
However, Mahamati, there is another sense in which the Tathagata can be said to be permanent. How? Because the knowledge arising from the attainment of enlightenment [ = an intuitive understanding] is of a permanent nature, the Tathagata is permanent. Mahamati, this knowledge, as it is attained intuitively by the Tathagatas, Arhats, Fully-Enlightened Ones, is, indeed, permanent. Whether the Tathagatas are born or not, this Dharmata, which is the regulative and sustaining principle to be discoverable in the enlightenment of all the Sravakas, Pratyekabuddhas, and philosophers, abides, and this sustaining principle of existence is not like the emptiness of space, which, however, is not understood by the ignorant and simple-minded. Mahamati, this knowledge of enlightenment belonging to the Tathagatas comes forth from transcendental knowledge (prajnajnana); Mahamati, the Tathagatas, Arhats, Fully-Enlightened Ones do not come forth from the habit-energy of ignorance which is concerned with the Citta, Manas, and Manovijnana, and the Skandhas, Dhatus, and Ayatanas. The triple world originates from the discriminating of unrealities, but the Tathagatas do not originate from the discriminating of unrealities. Where duality obtains, Mahamati, there is permanency and impermanency because of its not being one. Mahamati, [the truth of] absolute solitude is, indeed, non-dualistic1 because all things are characterised with non-duality and no-birth. For this reason, Mahamati, the Tathagatas, Arhats, Fully-Enlightened Ones are neither permanent nor impermanent. Mahamati, as long as there is word-discrimination, (219) there follows the faulty notion of permanency and impermanency. The destruction of the notion of permanency and impermanency as held by the ignorant, Mahamati, comes from the getting rid of the knowledge that is based on discrimination, and not from the getting rid of the knowledge that is based on the insight of solitude. So it is said:
1. By keeping away permanency and impermanency, [and yet] by keeping permanency and impermanency in sight, those who always see the Buddhas will not expose themselves to the power of the philosophical doctrines.
2. When permanency and impermanency are adhered to all the accumulation [one makes for the attainment of reality] will be of no avail; by destroying the knowledge that is based on discrimination, [the idea of] permanency and impermanency is kept back.
3. As soon as an assertion is made, all is in confusion; when it is understood that there is nothing in the world but what is seen of the Mind itself, disputes never arise.

Here Ends the Fifth Chapter, "On the Deduction of the Permanency and Impermanency of Tathagatahood."
http://lirs.ru/do/lanka_eng/lanka-nondiacritical.htm


if the Buddha is Permenant he will be falsely connected with the createing agencies by the philosiphers
(and the Buddha is not permenant in "that sense")
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:03 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:And I also found this interesting passage:
Again further, Mahamati, there are five groups of people, each of whom attains its own [spiritual] insight. What are the five? They are: (1) the group of people whose insight belongs to the Sravaka-vehicle; (2) the group of people whose insight belongs to the Pratyekabuddha-vehicle; (3) the group of people whose insight belongs to the Tathagata-vehicle; (4) the group of indefinite character; and (5) the group of people to whom no insight is possible.

Mahamati, how does one know the group of people whose insight belongs to the Sravaka vehicle? There are people the hair of whose body will stand on end when they know and realise the nature of the Skandhas, Dhatus, Ayatanas, and [what is meant by] generality and individuality; their intellect will leap with joy on knowing and practising what belongs to appearance and not on practising what they know of the uninterrupted chain of causation, —such ones, Mahamati, are said to be of the group whose insight belongs to the Sravaka vehicle. Having had an insight into their own vehicle, they abide at the fifth or the sixth stage where they do away with the rising of the passions, but not with the habit-energy; they have not yet passed beyond the inconceivable transformation-death, and their lion-roar is, "My life is destroyed, my morality is established, etc."; they will then discipline themselves in the egolessness of persons and finally gain the knowledge of Nirvana.


My life is destroyed refers to the "I" ego of the 5 Skandhas=(you)
and they will dicipline themselves in the non "I" none skandhas that make up "ordinary persons"(they will end the "I"/5 Skanghas)

Again, Mahamati, there are others who, believing in such things as ego, being, vital principle, nourisher, supreme spirit, or personal soul, will seek Nirvana in them. Again, Mahamati, there are still others who, seeing that all things exist by depending upon causes, will recognise in this the way to Nirvana. But, Mahamati, as they have no insight into the egolessness of things, there is no emancipation for them. This, Mahamati, is where those of the Sravaka-vehicle and the philosophers make the mistake in their insight by regarding non-deliverance as deliverance. Therefore, Mahamati, you ought to discipline yourself in order to escape this wrong view.
Well then, I wonder what type of twisting and turning you will execute in order to explain this one?
:namaste:[/quote][/quote]
Ego,being ect ect are based are the 5 Skandhas
they have no insight that the 5 skandhas are "not my self" "not our self" "not self" and there is no emancipation for them
and the philosophers make the mistake by regarding non-deliverance(5 Skandhas) as "my self" or "our self"(cause the 5 Skandhas are not my self and not our self)(remember the pali canon we spoke on).
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:13 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:the fact the Tathagatagarbha dosent die. "I" and "you" wont live forever (thats the 5 Skandhas)
According to this logic all beings are immortal, without having to realise Nirvana, since all beings possess Tathagatagarbha.
:namaste:



what are you talking about,beings are based on the "I" "ego" "5 Skandhas" these things are not immortal they are impermenant.

the permenant and immmortal is the Buddha(remember what you just posted)
"However, Mahamati, there is another sense in which the Tathagata can be said to be permanent. How? Because the knowledge arising from the attainment of enlightenment [ = an intuitive understanding] is of a permanent nature, the Tathagata is permanent. Mahamati, this knowledge, as it is attained intuitively by the Tathagatas, Arhats, Fully-Enlightened Ones, is, indeed, permanent"

permenant not ceaceing=immortal :namaste:
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby futerko » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:26 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:…the True Self of the Tathagatagarbha

not being reborn and not dying is life without end hence you dont die no death no rebirth=immortal heance deathless

It does appear that you are treating the nature of mind as if it were an entity.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
User avatar
futerko
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby futerko » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:32 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:the fact the Tathagatagarbha dosent die. "I" and "you" wont live forever (thats the 5 Skandhas)
According to this logic all beings are immortal, without having to realise Nirvana, since all beings possess Tathagatagarbha.
:namaste:



what are you talking about,beings are based on the "I" "ego" "5 Skandhas" these things are not immortal they are impermenant.

the permenant and immmortal is the Buddha(remember what you just posted)
"However, Mahamati, there is another sense in which the Tathagata can be said to be permanent. How? Because the knowledge arising from the attainment of enlightenment [ = an intuitive understanding] is of a permanent nature, the Tathagata is permanent. Mahamati, this knowledge, as it is attained intuitively by the Tathagatas, Arhats, Fully-Enlightened Ones, is, indeed, permanent"

permenant not ceaceing=immortal :namaste:


Again here, it says, the knowledge is of a permanent nature. It clearly does not say that there is an immortal being or self.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
User avatar
futerko
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:34 pm

futerko wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:…the True Self of the Tathagatagarbha

not being reborn and not dying is life without end hence you dont die no death no rebirth=immortal heance deathless

It does appear that you are treating the nature of mind as if it were an entity.



words will never suffice,nor will words ever discribe what enlightenement is.we honestly havent been argueing about where the moon is,we have been argueing about what the finger looks like.

well Buddhists disagreeing been going on strong 2555 yrs now.
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha, Eternalism, etc.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:40 pm

Well, actually, they haven't been arguing about it for the past 2555 years because the Mahaparinirvana, Srimaladevi and Tathagatagarbha Sutras were apparently written in the 3rd century and the Lankavatara Sutra in the 4th Century.

"Okay, so it's 1700 years and not 2555 years, so what?" you may say.

To which I will reply that it took 800 years from the Buddhas death for the teachings on anatman to start to be called into question. Now the Buddha said something at Kapilavatthu in the Banyan Grove: "... this holy life will not last long, the true Dhamma will last only 500 years." So he was 300 years off. No problem!

And now I am going to shut down this thread with a favorite quote of mine from myself :tongue: :
Okay. To recapitulate:

One group claims that the Buddha considers Nirvana as the True Self and bases this claim on excerpts from the Tathagatagarbha group of Sutras.

Another group claims that the entire Pali Canon, Sutras in the Mahayana Canon and the Tantras show that the Buddha considers both the conventional and the True Self as not existing.

And never the twain shall meet.

Both sides have laid out the arguments, logic and scriptural basis for their view so I'm going to put this one to rest and let those who read this thread decide for themselves. If anybody has anything (intelligent) to add that has not already been said please feel free to contact me.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7884
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Previous

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Fruitzilla, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 14 guests

>