The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
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David N. Snyder
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:33 am

Apparently those translations are from:

http://kathodos.com/att.html

The main pages on the website are entered by permission only, so went to the who is info:

http://www.whois.com/whois/kathodos.com

It is Ken Wheeler of Dark Zen. As my father would say, "consider the source."

Take those translations with a grain of salt or rather a couple of 100kg bags of salt.

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Jnana » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:57 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Apparently those translations are from:

http://kathodos.com/att.html

The main pages on the website are entered by permission only, so went to the who is info:

http://www.whois.com/whois/kathodos.com

It is Ken Wheeler of Dark Zen. As my father would say, "consider the source."

Take those translations with a grain of salt or rather a couple of 100kg bags of salt.

Thanks David. That kathodos webpage is an obvious attempt to spread misinformation.

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Son of Buddha
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:13 pm

Jnana wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Apparently those translations are from:

http://kathodos.com/att.html

The main pages on the website are entered by permission only, so went to the who is info:

http://www.whois.com/whois/kathodos.com

It is Ken Wheeler of Dark Zen. As my father would say, "consider the source."

Take those translations with a grain of salt or rather a couple of 100kg bags of salt.

Thanks David. That kathodos webpage is an obvious attempt to spread misinformation.



The translations are not from the kathodos webpage,by all means compare them,the translations are different in wording.
Although im pretty sure no matter how much proof is provided no matter how many suttas and commentary texts are qouted you will still wont accept the proof.

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Indrajala » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:38 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:The translations are not from the kathodos webpage,by all means compare them,the translations are different in wording.
Although im pretty sure no matter how much proof is provided no matter how many suttas and commentary texts are qouted you will still wont accept the proof.


Perhaps you could cite where your translations are coming from?
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:59 pm

Huseng wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:The translations are not from the kathodos webpage,by all means compare them,the translations are different in wording.
Although im pretty sure no matter how much proof is provided no matter how many suttas and commentary texts are qouted you will still wont accept the proof.


Perhaps you could cite where your translations are coming from?



Buddha-nature in the Pali Canon | Randrols Ramblings
randrolsramblings.wordpress.com/.../buddha-nature-in-the-pali-cano...

The Translator is a well known Translator
Douglas Duckworth
their Sanghas Information is listed contacts can be made if you need to do back ground info on said individuals and the information for their Monks is also posted,if anyone needs to talk to the teachers.
(I beleive MR Duckworth is into Shentong True self as is myself,which lead him to obviously look for the teachings in the suttas to confirm an old foundation for such views)

also looking at the kathodos webpage I noticed the translations are different in wording(mainly the sentences are the same it seems however they have replaced (self) with (soul) so these are 2 completely different translations that can be compared.

(sorry I didnt post this earlier I couldnt find the website on Bing,It took me alittle while to realise the search engine needed to be changed to google)

Peace and Love

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Indrajala » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:06 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:Buddha-nature in the Pali Canon | Randrols Ramblings
randrolsramblings.wordpress.com/.../buddha-nature-in-the-pali-cano...

The Translator is a well known Translator
Douglas Duckworth
their Sanghas Information is listed contacts can be made if you need to do back ground info on said individuals and the information for their Monks is also posted,if anyone needs to talk to the teachers.
(I beleive MR Duckworth is into Shentong True self as is myself,which lead him to obviously look for the teachings in the suttas to confirm an old foundation for such views)


These translations are problematic.

Perhaps you might consider using Access to Insight?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/
tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:12 pm

Huseng wrote:These translations are problematic.
Perhaps you might consider using Access to Insight?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/


how are they problematic?you have 2 different translations by 2 different people saying almost the same exact thing(one useing self the other useing soul)

now I could see it being problematic if these two different translations were completely different from one anouther but they are not.(they seem to be in agreement on everything other that the punchline(self)(soul)

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Indrajala » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:15 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:how are they problematic?you have 2 different translations by 2 different people saying almost the same exact thing(one useing self the other useing soul)

now I could see it being problematic if these two different translations were completely different from one anouther but they are not.(they seem to be in agreement on everything other that the punchline(self)(soul)



Your selection are clearly aimed at promoting an adharmic view and hence are unacceptable.
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Jnana » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:29 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:The Translator is a well known Translator
Douglas Duckworth

Duckworth says he didn't make those translations. The significant similarities (right down to citation style and number, etc.) strongly suggests that they are merely a slightly reworked version of what is found on that Kathodos webpage. Both versions are seriously flawed to the point that they aren't translations at all. The main error -- which is obviously intentional -- is translating pronouns as if they referred to a metaphysical Self.

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:52 pm

Jnana wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:The Translator is a well known Translator
Douglas Duckworth

Duckworth says he didn't make those translations. The significant similarities (right down to citation style and number, etc.) strongly suggests that they are merely a slightly reworked version of what is found on that Kathodos webpage. Both versions are seriously flawed to the point that they aren't translations at all. The main error -- which is obviously intentional -- is translating pronouns as if they referred to a metaphysical Self.



in the 5 minutes I posted this you have already talked to him??
whats his phone number,have him send me a message.

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Indrajala » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:52 pm

Jnana wrote:The main error -- which is obviously intentional -- is translating pronouns as if they referred to a metaphysical Self.


I suspected that was the case.

Very intentional mistranslation, unless the author is completely inept.

In any case we should not allow for bogus translations to be passed off as legitimate translations of texts. Everyone can express their opinion on matters, but misrepresenting sutras with false translations is unacceptable.
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:11 pm

Not to mention negative karma for the person doing it and confusing for those trying to understand the doctrine.

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:41 pm

Huseng wrote:
Jnana wrote:The main error -- which is obviously intentional -- is translating pronouns as if they referred to a metaphysical Self.


I suspected that was the case.

Very intentional mistranslation, unless the author is completely inept.

In any case we should not allow for bogus translations to be passed off as legitimate translations of texts. Everyone can express their opinion on matters, but misrepresenting sutras with false translations is unacceptable.



I'm sorry I didnt know they were a bogus translation,I assumed it being on a Sangha website it could be trustworthy.

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:37 pm

Now I have read this thread, and I am forced to know this "dark zen" exists, thanks alot guys, I should have known better than to look at the website :tantrum: :tantrum:
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and the ocean of wisdom fully attained. -The Aspiration of Samantabhadra

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby cdpatton » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:33 am

I am reluctant to announce it - it seems like whenever I do, something happens and I end up on hiatus again - but I've begun to work on my old, ancient, horrible draft of this Sutra from the late 90s and will be posting chunks every other week or so over at my website, dharmatrove.info. I'll be attempting to footnote it thoroughly, so it should be a step over and above the Yamamoto "translation" everyone is struggling with these days. So, far, there is just the beginning of Chapter 1 online. But you can see what I'll doing there.

Charlie.

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:24 am

cdpatton wrote:I am reluctant to announce it - it seems like whenever I do, something happens and I end up on hiatus again - but I've begun to work on my old, ancient, horrible draft of this Sutra from the late 90s and will be posting chunks every other week or so over at my website, dharmatrove.info. I'll be attempting to footnote it thoroughly, so it should be a step over and above the Yamamoto "translation" everyone is struggling with these days. So, far, there is just the beginning of Chapter 1 online. But you can see what I'll doing there.

Charlie.


Thats good we need more translations,for objective comparrisons,I do feel for you,this sutra is Massive,translating it looks like a nightmare.

Peace and Love


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